study lies to graduates

Malcolm · Post by **Malcolm** » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:58 pm

Post by **TheCatt** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:28 am

Strangely, student loan debt, which amounts to about $1tn in the US, is something the New York Fed report authors chose not to incorporate into their analysis on the rate of return of an education.

There are a few other factors in the cost of an education that the authors omitted.

Not only did the report not incorporate student debt, but the tuition estimates used in the analysis are the net tuition costs, which don't include room and board.

Wut?

At any rate... I'd basically agree with them, on aggregate. But there's a significant # for whom it's just a stupid idea.

Post by **Leisher** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:36 am

Considering the fact that most jobs require a college degree (even though you don't actually NEED one), I'd say they have to be correct about college graduates making more.

However, it's a bullshit study that further enforces a bullshit system.

Engineers, doctors, lawyers, teachers, and a handful of other highly specialized jobs need "higher education".

The vast majority of the jobs in the history of mankind do not need a college degree to be completed.

(I don't count certifications or trade schools as "degrees" or college.)

Post by **TPRJones** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:30 am

Considering the fact that most jobs require a college degree...

Nope. The majority do not. Factory jobs, janitorial, fast food, day labor, ditch digging, etc etc etc are the most common jobs. No degree required. Just sayin'.

(I don't count certifications or trade schools as "degrees" or college.)

Depends on the certifcation. Some of them involve more instructional time than a four-year degree (like the commercial pilot cert). And some of the short ones can still get you a six-figure starting salary (like the underwater welding cert).

Post by **Leisher** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:06 am

Nope. The majority do not. Factory jobs, janitorial, fast food, day labor, ditch digging, etc etc etc are the most common jobs. No degree required. Just sayin'.

My bad. I should have specified that I was thinking of career jobs, not service industry jobs.

Depends on the certifcation. Some of them involve more instructional time than a four-year degree (like the commercial pilot cert). And some of the short ones can still get you a six-figure starting salary (like the underwater welding cert).

I wouldn't consider those as part of the "college system" that I consider to be a huge problem.

Post by **TPRJones** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:12 am

Oh! I read your statement backwards. You weren't saying certs aren't as good as college, you were saying certs aren't part of the same problems that college has. Gotcha.

Post by **Leisher** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:22 am

Certs DO have issues, but not the same ones as colleges.

Post by **Vince** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:38 am

Leisher wrote:
Nope. The majority do not. Factory jobs, janitorial, fast food, day labor, ditch digging, etc etc etc are the most common jobs. No degree required. Just sayin'.
My bad. I should have specified that I was thinking of career jobs, not service industry jobs.

Considering how many people hold degrees outside of their career field, I'd say it's not just service industry. At least, it's not required to be able to DO the job. Maybe to GET the job.

As far as the earning potential with a degree, I have to wonder how much of that is because those that can't or don't get a degree just don't have as much earning potential in general due to other things?

Post by **Leisher** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:01 am

Vince wrote:
Leisher wrote:
Nope. The majority do not. Factory jobs, janitorial, fast food, day labor, ditch digging, etc etc etc are the most common jobs. No degree required. Just sayin'.
My bad. I should have specified that I was thinking of career jobs, not service industry jobs.
Considering how many people hold degrees outside of their career field, I'd say it's not just service industry. At least, it's not required to be able to DO the job. Maybe to GET the job.

As far as the earning potential with a degree, I have to wonder how much of that is because those that can't or don't get a degree just don't have as much earning potential in general due to other things?

Yeah, "getting" the job was my point. Almost every job these days (aside from service jobs) require a degree according to the job postings. However, does one really need a degree to "do" the job? In most cases, no. It's just HR people helping to continue a broken system.

Look no further than military service versus college. HR people will tell you that college on a resume is more important. They're full of shit.

College - Kid left home, partied, studied sometimes, and got taught theory about something.

Military - Kid left home, was taught discipline, got in shape, traveled, learned a skill, got years of experience in said skill, and learned to take and follow orders. It's not a contest.

Do you hire the person with no experience and who just spent four years drunk or the guy who spent four years actually doing the job?

Of course, that doesn't apply to every job, but I believe I made my point.

As for earning potential, if all career type jobs falsely require a degree, well fucking DUH, those with degrees have more earning potential.

Post by **Vince** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:18 am

I hear welders are in high demand and can make pretty good money as well.

Post by **TheCatt** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:38 am

I hear software engineers make a boatload more with nicer working conditions.

Welders don't make dick

Post by **Vince** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:15 am

Yeah, too bad the jobs are going to Indians with visas. Read an article the other day where all the US staff of programmers were being laid off and actually training their replacements. Wish I could find it again. Read it within the last couple of weeks.

I don't know about that chart, but my sister was talking to a construction guy in the Nashville area that said you can make 60k pretty easy in that area with experience. Hear-say, but for what it's worth.

Malcolm · Post by **Malcolm** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:17 am

60k pretty easy in that area with experience

I can find IT jobs better than that up here all day, every day.

Post by **TPRJones** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:23 am

TheCatt wrote:Welders don't make dick

Depends on where you are, and it also doesn't include the overtime. Down here in Houston they're in high demand; we've got a 100% placement rate out of our welding program with starting salaries officially ranging from $35k to $60k. In actual practice, though, they're also usually able to get 10 to 20 hours of overtime every week, which pushes the actual take home pay up substantially. Once you include that, our average graduating student is going to go into a job making just a bit shy of six figures.

Considering most of them we see here barely graduated high school and have parents working two jobs in the service industry just to make ends meet, that's pretty good.

Edited By TPRJones on 1403879034

Post by **GORDON** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:26 am

Yeah, round these parts it's the "boiler maker" union. The wife collects on a lot of them and she doesn't understand why they can make $120k a year and still not be able to afford their car and house payment.

Oh yeah, it's because they go $30k in debt to the local video casinos, get several DUIs, and generally just aren't too bright.

Edited By GORDON on 1403879236

Post by **TheCatt** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
60k pretty easy in that area with experience
I can find IT jobs better than that up here all day, every day.

Yeah, I can't imagine a good software engineer with a few years of experience who isn't making $100k.

Post by **TheCatt** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:27 pm

Vince wrote:Yeah, too bad the jobs are going to Indians with visas.

Actually, visas are pretty limited for those guys.

Post by **Vince** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:12 pm

TheCatt wrote:
Vince wrote:Yeah, too bad the jobs are going to Indians with visas.
Actually, visas are pretty limited for those guys.

For now. Zuckerburg is pushing hard to change that with Immigration reform. I'm really starting to hate that little prick's guts.

Post by **Vince** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:55 am

Apparently the visas aren't too limited.

Backlash stirs in US against foreign worker visas

They say Manpower, for example, last year posted U.S. job openings in India but not in the United States.

Malcolm · Post by **Malcolm** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:41 am

The argument has long been that there aren't enough qualified American workers to fill certain jobs, especially in science, engineering and technology.

Finding quality programmers is a bitch regardless of nationality. Shitty ones are a dime a dozen. If you're getting a shitty one anyway, why not get the cheapest one?