Sharks

[Leisher]

Saw a video of Deep Blue today, the 19-20 foot, 50 year old, pregnant great white shark and wondered how much bigger they got.

I knew "Bruce" was 25 feet and a captain of a sight seeing ship saw a 25 footer off the coast of South Africa a year or two ago, but I figured that was the limit. I mean, people always said Jaws wasn't realistic because great whites don't get that big.

Guinness has two listed at 36 and 37 feet respectively. One caught in the 1870s south of Australia and the other in 1952 in New Brunswick, Canada.

Now think about this: What are the odds that either of those were the biggest great white in the oceans at that time?

Isn't it possible there's a 40 foot monster out there? How big around would he/she be? How far off is the 37 footer from megalodon territory?

[Troy]

Related Nightmare Fuel, you're welcome. If I already posted this somewhere, sorry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mkIgoscw7Q

And my thought is that they don't get much above 25 feet nowadays. We just don't have the ocean mammal populations like we used to.

[Malcolm]

Guinness has two listed at 36 and 37 feet respectively. One caught in the 1870s south of Australia and the other in 1952 in New Brunswick, Canada.

Jaws was supposed to be 25' long, which is huge and larger than any confirmed natural creature of that species. The biggest great whites reliably measured and weighed come in around 20' plus change. I call bullshit on Guinness because modern science hasn't found any fish around that length and size except fucking whale sharks.

Now think about this: What are the odds that either of those were the biggest great white in the oceans at that time?

Isn't it possible there's a 40 foot monster out there? How big around would he/she be? How far off is the 37 footer from megalodon territory?

A juvie megalodon would be comparable to a great white in terms of size. 40' would be young adult. 60' was about their max length.

[GORDON]

I'm hoping to swim with a whale shark within 5 years. FYI.

[TheCatt]

I'm hoping to sleep with a whale shark within 5 years. FYI.

[GORDON]

Yeah prolly a dude shark.

[Troy]

I'm hoping to swim with a whale shark within 5 years. FYI.

Heard they are on the mexico side of Baja. Specifically the sea of cortez. Wanna check that out this year too!

[GORDON]

I'm hoping to swim with a whale shark within 5 years. FYI.

Heard they are on the mexico side of Baja. Specifically the sea of cortez. Wanna check that out this year too!

They seem to be a lot of.places... The aircraft carrier off Alabama supposedly sees them a lot, but that dive is deep and at least four years away when the kid is older.

[Leisher]

Jaws was supposed to be 25' long

Yeah, that's "Bruce" the shark I referred to in my original statement.

I call bullshit on Guinness because modern science hasn't found any fish around that length and size except fucking whale sharks.

I will call Guinness and tell them to remove those records because "Malcolm calls bullshit".

It is entirely possible that they're out there, but we haven't encountered them lately. I mean whale sharks weren't discovered until 1828 and they're fucking massive. This guy was thought to be extinct for 66 million years until it was found again in 1938. The megamouth shark wasn't discovered until 1976. I could do this list forever because it never ends. We haven't found all the animals and species on land and in the air, which doesn't have a single inch we can't reach. Now imagine what's down in the oceans where we can't go and which happens to cover the majority of Earth's surface.

Is it really a stretch to speculate that human fishing has pushed the territory for larger predators further into the depths? I mean they'd be avoiding us and chasing prey that we're making scarce in the shallow water.

Science doesn't know a lot about great whites. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm pointing out that you can't declare Guinness' records to be bullshit either.

I tend to believe the sight seeing captain who says the shark was a 25 footer. It tore apart their diving cage very aggressively (it made headlines a few years ago and I'm pretty sure I posted a link here). So it's not like he was looking at a fish in the distance. It was next to his boat so he had scale. Deep Blue is a female over 20 feet and she's on video from 2013, so why wouldn't there be anything bigger than her still?

And my thought is that they don't get much above 25 feet nowadays. We just don't have the ocean mammal populations like we used to.

Now this is a rational thought.

You know how big a goldfish will get? As large as its habit and food supply will allow. Sharks could have been much larger 100 years ago, but due to human activity, smaller territories, and smaller food supply they might not have the opportunity to get as large anymore.

Heard they are on the mexico side of Baja.

That's where Deep Blue was captured on film.

[Troy]

My favorite freediving/spearfishing book has a few stories about the Guadalupe Islands and why nobody goes there without cages or a deathwish. Short of it was that some early pioneers to the sport were literally eaten in half while diving there by big Whites. I want to see a White underwater, but not at THOSE islands.

[Leisher]

I wouldn't recommend swimming anywhere near the Galapagos Islands either.

[GORDON]

My favorite freediving/spearfishing book has a few stories about the Guadalupe Islands and why nobody goes there without cages or a deathwish. Short of it was that some early pioneers to the sport were literally eaten in half while diving there by big Whites. I want to see a White underwater, but not at THOSE islands.

Are they just so big that everything that moves is food? Peeps aren't really in a shark's food chain.

[Malcolm]

I will call Guinness and tell them to remove those records because "Malcolm calls bullshit

What are they using to call a thirty-five goddamned foot shark?

Historically, a number of very large great white shark specimens have been recorded. For decades, many sources including the Guinness Book of World Records, listed two great white sharks as the largest individuals: In the 1870s, a 10.9 m (36 ft) great white captured in southern Australian waters, near Port Fairy, and an 11.3 m (37 ft) shark trapped in a herring weir in New Brunswick, Canada, in the 1930s. Some researchers question these measurements’ reliability, noting they were much larger than any other accurately reported sighting. This New Brunswick shark may have been a misidentified basking shark, as the two have similar body shapes. The basking shark (Cetorhinus maximus) is the second largest living fish, after the whale shark, and one of three plankton-eating sharks besides the whale shark and megamouth shark.

The question of the Port Fairy shark was settled in the 1970s when J. E. Randall examined the shark’s jaws and “found that the Port Fairy shark was of the order of 5 m (17 ft) in length and suggested that a mistake had been made in the original record, in 1870, of the shark’s length”.

So one was a really shitty estimate that got called bullshit 45 years ago, and the other was a different shark species.

My favorite freediving/spearfishing book has a few stories about the Guadalupe Islands and why nobody goes there without cages or a deathwish. Short of it was that some early pioneers to the sport were literally eaten in half while diving there by big Whites. I want to see a White underwater, but not at THOSE islands.

You mean stabbing the fuck out of prey items in front of opportunistic predators is a bad idea? The hell you say.

Is it really a stretch to speculate that human fishing has pushed the territory for larger predators further into the depths? I mean they'd be avoiding us and chasing prey that we're making scarce in the shallow water.

No, not at all. But the species Carcharodon carcharias is sitting in the low 20' range for "biggest modern specimen" and indeed any specimen in our fossil record. We have ways to estimate shark length, a couple of which are rather accurate.

Science doesn't know a lot about great whites.

Not everything, but it knows a semi-decent amount. It sure as hell has ways to talk about how big they get.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm pointing out that you can't declare Guinness' records to be bullshit either.

I think I just proved that I can and that my instinct was correct.

I tend to believe the sight seeing captain who says the shark was a 25 footer. It tore apart their diving cage very aggressively (it made headlines a few years ago and I'm pretty sure I posted a link here). So it's not like he was looking at a fish in the distance. It was next to his boat so he had scale.

I don't. I tend to believe tape measures, objects for scale or no. Unless his boat had tick marks every half-foot or so and the shark was sitting very still next to them.

You know how big a goldfish will get? As large as its habit and food supply will allow. Sharks could have been much larger 100 years ago, but due to human activity, smaller territories, and smaller food supply they might not have the opportunity to get as large anymore.

And no, otherwise the fossil record would show increase in the size of their teeth from back 100 years ago. Keep in mind, we were getting sharks as bycatch from way back in the day, and people kept those teeth because they looked cool.

[Leisher]

What are they using to call a thirty-five goddamned foot shark?

Their tongues and ability to use language? I think you mistyped something.

So one was a really shitty estimate that got called bullshit 45 years ago, and the other was a different shark species.

To be fair, the New Brunswick one is speculated as possibly a different species. And honestly, I might call Guinness myself on your behalf. Malcolm actually looked things up instead of just relying upon his belief that he knows everything about everything. For once some facts went his way and he didn't spin the argument! What category of records would that be under?

No, not at all. But the species Carcharodon carcharias is sitting in the low 20' range for "biggest modern specimen" and indeed any specimen in our fossil record. We have ways to estimate shark length, a couple of which are rather accurate.

I've seen official 23 footers, so Bruce at 25 feet isn't out of the question.

There was a human once that was 8' 11.1" tall. Why would such an anomaly only occur in humans? What would be the equivalent shark? Average length for a full adult female great white (who are bigger than the males) is 15-21'. Average height of a normal human male is 5'6". So let's say the variance for humans is up to 3'5" taller than average, what would that equate to in great whites? Wouldn't that make a 37' possible, theoretically? (Leaving out food supply and whatnot. Just talking potential size and ignoring that they don't necessarily have to have an equivalent variation.)

Not everything, but it knows a semi-decent amount. It sure as hell has ways to talk about how big they get.

It does to a point. Science doesn't know the travel patterns of great whites. It doesn't know where they go and why. There are ideas, but no certainties. So what if larger great whites do roam in deeper waters? Wouldn't it be likely they're larger? (If they exist.) And if they are larger, isn't it possible that any fossils simply haven't fallen into our hands or could have been mistaken for things like baby megalodons?

Again, this is pure speculation for fun.

I think I just proved that I can and that my instinct was correct.

Your instinct is to always think you know better than any expert or source. You were right on one Guinness item and choose to believe you are on another despite a complete lack of evidence either way.

I tend to believe tape measures, objects for scale or no.

Insert a dick joke.

Unless his boat had tick marks every half-foot or so and the shark was sitting very still next to them.

That's horseshit and you know it. Anyone doing anything long enough can see sizes if that's part of their gig. Crab fishing vets don't ever use those measuring sticks to know if a crab is legal or not. They just know. Professional drivers and pilots, or just good ones, can pretty accurately estimate speed based on visual cues from outside. Cops can pretty accurately guess a car's speed (that they're not in) based on visual cues. I only needed to see one Uwe Boll movie to know they're all shit. Etc.

And no, otherwise the fossil record would show increase in the size of their teeth from back 100 years ago. Keep in mind, we were getting sharks as bycatch from way back in the day, and people kept those teeth because they looked cool.

Not if the anomalies have not been included in the record. For all we know the Asians have been making shark tooth soup to make their dicks bigger.

[GORDON]

They recently found a shark off of... Ireland? that they clocked at 400 years old.

edit - No, Greenland.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-37047168

[Malcolm]

I've seen official 23 footers, so Bruce at 25 feet isn't out of the question.

I've yet to find any officially, properly measured and weighed individual longer than 21'. I've got photos and stories of bigger ones. But I've got those for Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster, too.

There was a human once that was 8' 11.1" tall. Why would such an anomaly only occur in humans?

Because his pituitary gland was switched in the permanent "ON" position and caused premature death. Bigger isn't always better and no medical professional would call him "healthy."

There was a human once that was 8' 11.1" tall. Why would such an anomaly only occur in humans? What would be the equivalent shark? Average length for a full adult female great white (who are bigger than the males) is 15-21'. Average height of a normal human male is 5'6". So let's say the variance for humans is up to 3'5" taller than average, what would that equate to in great whites? Wouldn't that make a 37' possible, theoretically?

No, there is absolutely zero evidence in the fossil record for this shark going back millions upon millions of years. Fish do not grow the same as people. There are statistical charts biologists have worked on for years to figure out shark growth rates and maximum sizes. The biggest number I've heard any credible scientist entertain is 25', and that would be gargantuan.

So what if larger great whites do roam in deeper waters? Wouldn't it be likely they're larger? (If they exist.) And if they are larger, isn't it possible that any fossils simply haven't fallen into our hands or could have been mistaken for things like baby megalodons?

You're starting to sound like the dudes on "Ancient Aliens" now with all this "isn't it possible," talk. No, they can tell the difference between shark species by the teeth (pretty much the only part that survives). Is it always possible someone finds the tooth or shark tomorrow that proves me wrong? Sure. But ain't no one found it yet. Furthermore, the largest great whites tend to congregate around the same coastal areas every year to feed. The thing about the deep sea is it's fucking huge and the odds of a large apex predator running into something of substantial caloric content isn't that great. Around the coast, it skyrockets. That's why truly pelagic sharks (like the oceanic white tip and blue sharks) aren't as big as great whites.

Your instinct is to always think you know better than any expert or source.

No, my instinct responds strongly to bullshit, and certain experts and sources (like the folks at Guinness) make bank by pushing that product for their own ends. I've got a non-zero amount of training in biology and zoology (in particular a fascination with sharks), and the more I knowledge I have about something, the better my instincts tend to get.

Anyone doing anything long enough can see sizes if that's part of their gig. Crab fishing vets don't ever use those measuring sticks to know if a crab is legal or not. They just know. Professional drivers and pilots, or just good ones, can pretty accurately estimate speed based on visual cues from outside. Cops can pretty accurately guess a car's speed (that they're not in) based on visual cues. I only needed to see one Uwe Boll movie to know they're all shit. Etc.

Baseball umpires should know balls and strikes, but they still get them wrong over 30% of the time. People are halfway decent are making relative measurements, e.g. this is bigger or longer than that. But they suck at absolute measurements without tools. There's a reason the terms "fisherman's story" and "the one that got away" exist.

They recently found a shark off of... Ireland? that they clocked at 400 years old.

edit - No, Greenland.

One of the more interesting beasts. They're huge, slow, and live in frigid, nutrient-rich waters. Nothing eats them because their flesh is toxic, so they generally get left alone unless some Scandinavian makes kæstur hákarl out of them.

[Malcolm]

I don't find anything likely or even plausible about a great white sighting of over 25'. I probably wouldn't believe anything above 20' without a legit measurement and proof. But it's entirely possible some hitherto unknown species of closely related shark will clock in between great white and megalodon size. The ocean is big and we find new shit every time we start trawling down there. I'm willing to entertain all kinds of wacky possibilities.

S. popularis was a school-bus-size, flippered marine reptile that lived during the Triassic period, 250 million to 200 million years ago. The bones of one of these ichthyosaurs were found in a strange linear pattern. McMenamin and his colleagues argued that they were arranged there by a giant cephalopod (an octopus or squid) playing with its food.

He's got some convincing arguments that they didn't get that way naturally and that the currents didn't do it, so "kraken hobo art" sounds as good as anything else. It's the underwater equivalent of that one star which alternatively dims and brightens up.

[TheCatt]

Malcolm's a denialist.

[Leisher]

They recently found a shark off of... Ireland? that they clocked at 400 years old.

Well, they're fucked as soon as the Japanese find out. They'll be grinding them up to make "live forever tea" or some shit.

I've yet to find any officially, properly measured and weighed individual longer than 21'.

Keep looking, it's a big ocean.

Because his pituitary gland was switched in the permanent "ON" position and caused premature death. Bigger isn't always better and no medical professional would call him "healthy."

Who gives a fuck why? That's not the point.

No, there is absolutely zero evidence in the fossil record for this shark going back millions upon millions of years. Fish do not grow the same as people. There are statistical charts biologists have worked on for years to figure out shark growth rates and maximum sizes. The biggest number I've heard any credible scientist entertain is 25', and that would be gargantuan.

I heard once that the atom was the smallest possible thing ever. Did you know they recently found a new dinosaur? Funny how new shit keeps turning up.

You're starting to sound like the dudes on "Ancient Aliens" now with all this "isn't it possible," talk. No, they can tell the difference between shark species by the teeth (pretty much the only part that survives). Is it always possible someone finds the tooth or shark tomorrow that proves me wrong? Sure.

And we're done! The debate is over. (Kind of a dead horse at this point anyway.) You just became Ross:

No, my instinct responds strongly to bullshit, and certain experts and sources (like the folks at Guinness) make bank by pushing that product for their own ends. I've got a non-zero amount of training in biology and zoology (in particular a fascination with sharks), and the more I knowledge I have about something, the better my instincts tend to get.

Based on some of your stances around here at times I'd say your instincts don't respond as strongly to bullshit as you think.

Baseball umpires should know balls and strikes, but they still get them wrong over 30% of the time. People are halfway decent are making relative measurements, e.g. this is bigger or longer than that. But they suck at absolute measurements without tools. There's a reason the terms "fisherman's story" and "the one that got away" exist.

Apples and oranges. Judging speed and size is completely different than judging balls and strikes in some phantom box that changes per person and per batter.

I don't find anything likely or even plausible about a great white sighting of over 25'.

I already pointed out we're done Ross. Get over it.

Malcolm's a denialist.

If Malcolm were a scientist he'd be that annoying one who has to explain why the Hulk isn't realistic every time a new Avengers movie comes out. Is Malcolm's true identity NdGT?

[Vince]

I from Missouri on this one. Show me. I suppose they CAN get really big, but I even have to take the Guinness record from 1870 with a grain of salt. There's a reason they call them "fish tales".