Remember Guiliani?

[Leisher]

He re-emerged to criticize the "BLM" movement.

His words are on point with all the criticism about that movement, but it takes balls to be in his position and say it all publicly knowing he'll be labeled a racist.

[TPRJones]

“When you say black lives matter, that’s inherently racist,” he later added.

No, it isn't. Yes there are some racists in the BLM movement, although most of that movement isn't inherently racist. But more on-point, the fact that one is stating that the lives of African Americans matter in no way requires one to also state that other lives do not matter. To declare that as a purely racist statement that cannot be used in a non-racist context is to insert racism where you want to see racism.

You can talk all day long about how one person in the BLM or another is racist, and I'll agree or disagree based on the words and actions of that person. But on this particular point he is just wrong.

[Leisher]

Taken simply at the words "black lives matter", no that isn't racist. Because those three words aren't implying certain lives matter anymore than others.

The movement, however, is completely racist. When one of your talking points is that people who say things like "all lives matter" are racist, then it's a racist movement. When your movement is about black people being killed by police and how that's got to stop, yet black people aren't the #1 group of people being killed by police, there's a problem in your logic. The logic gets worse when you realize the number one killer of black people is black people. Funny how we don't see the same amount of effort being put into stopping that. Where's the protest march to stop the slaughter going on in Chicago (the place with the strictest gun laws in the nation, btw).

[GORDON]

When I say "civilian police shouldn't be so quick to kill peeps" does that make me a hippie?

[Malcolm]

When I say "civilian police shouldn't be so quick to kill peeps" does that make me a hippie?

Of course not. It just makes you a criminal.

[TPRJones]

When one of your talking points is that people who say things like "all lives matter" are racist, then it's a racist movement.

That is not a talking point - nor even a stance of - the BLM movement. It may be something some people say who claim to be part of the movement, but that just means some people are assholes not that the BLM movement is racist. You can't just take anything anyone says tagged with BLM and consider it to be a legit part of the movement. With that line of reasoning all political speech is inherently worthless because anyone could use similar names at any time to say anything they wanted and thus invalidate the entire movements goals.

The official response from the BLM movement to "All Lives Matter" has been along the lines of: yes, of course they do, but we are right now in particular concerned about all these summary executions of African Americans without due process and would like that to stop please, and once we have achieved this goal of not being murdered indiscriminately then we'll be better able to assist with any other X Lives Matter campaigns you'd care to have help with.

[Leisher]

When one of your talking points is that people who say things like "all lives matter" are racist, then it's a racist movement.

That is not a talking point - nor even a stance of - the BLM movement. It may be something some people say who claim to be part of the movement, but that just means some people are assholes not that the BLM movement is racist. You can't just take anything anyone says tagged with BLM and consider it to be a legit part of the movement. With that line of reasoning all political speech is inherently worthless because anyone could use similar names at any time to say anything they wanted and thus invalidate the entire movements goals.

The official response from the BLM movement to "All Lives Matter" has been along the lines of: yes, of course they do, but we are right now in particular concerned about all these summary executions of African Americans without due process and would like that to stop please, and once we have achieved this goal of not being murdered indiscriminately then we'll be better able to assist with any other X Lives Matter campaigns you'd care to have help with.

You're making my point.

The entire idea is racist. Hell, I just did a Google search and all I see is racism.

It IS racist because they're singling out one race as "mattering". They ignore the fact that they are killed by cops less than whites. They ignore the fact that they're killed by cops at a lower percentage rate than American Indians. And despite the fact that some are killed unjustly, they refuse to acknowledge when they were rightfully stopped with force, like Michael Brown. They only care that cops are killing black folk. They don't say shit about black folk killing black folk in numbers that absolutely dwarf the number of black folks killed by police. They only care that cops are killing black folk.

Black lives do matter, but all lives matter. If you want to protest police, do so, but don't do it on behalf of one race only, especially if that race aren't the ones being killed more or at a higher rate than other races.

[Malcolm]

They ignore the fact that they are killed by cops less than whites. They ignore the fact that they're killed by cops at a lower percentage rate than American Indians.

Irrelevant. The fact that cops are killing other people isn't taking away from them shooting black folk.

And despite the fact that some are killed unjustly, they refuse to acknowledge when they were rightfully stopped with force, like Michael Brown. They only care that cops are killing black folk.

I'll give you this. Not every dead black dude is a martyr. That said, I completely get why they wouldn't believe the same system that's been fucking them over for years is really trying to be up front with them now.

They don't say shit about black folk killing black folk in numbers that absolutely dwarf the number of black folks killed by police. They only care that cops are killing black folk.

They don't ignore that. But on the flip side, you can't take the Bloods or Crips to court and sue them for compensation or legally blackmail them into reform. Furthermore, it doesn't matter how many public servants are murdering people on the job without goddamn solid reasons. When one occurs, it needs to be addressed.

[TPRJones]

None of those examples are from a member of the Black Lives Matter campaign so we're back to the part where all because someone says a thing doesn't mean that they are necessarily a representative of that thing. You wouldn't want people to think Fred Phelps speaks on behalf of all Christians, would you?

As to making your point - and the entire idea being racist - I disagree. First I'd like to see your statistics when you claim that blacks aren't killed at a higher rate than other races, because the stats I can find support just that. I do see some stats quoted online that claim otherwise but they are sourced from police sources and police sources have been notoriously bad at providing proper statistics. Some would say they outright lie about some of those statistics. Let's focus on independent statistics to avoid bias and possible liars, shall we?

So presuming for the moment - until we have stats we can agree upon one way or the other that may or may not alter this conversation - that the stats back up the idea that blacks are being jailed and killed 1) at a higher per-capita rate than other races, and b) at higher rates than is reasonable given the relative crime rates, then how is it racist to point out this injustice and seek to remedy it?

[Leisher]

Irrelevant. The fact that cops are killing other people isn't taking away from them shooting black folk.

Irrelevant to you. To me, black folks are the end all be all of people, so I care that others are being killed too, not just black folk.

That said, I completely get why they wouldn't believe the same system that's been fucking them over for years is really trying to be up front with them now.

The system is fucking us all over, but nobody else matters apparently.

They don't ignore that.

They sure as fuck do, and that's a sentiment that's been echoed in the black community.

But on the flip side, you can't take the Bloods or Crips to court and sue them for compensation or legally blackmail them into reform.

That makes sense. Can't take them to court, so why protest it?

Furthermore, it doesn't matter how many public servants are murdering people on the job without goddamn solid reasons. When one occurs, it needs to be addressed.

I agree. What I don't agree with is all the millions of law enforcement professionals being adamant about knowing every fact of a situation despite not being there.

I, personally, think the guy in Minnesota or where ever sounds like he shouldn't have been shot and that cop should face charges. However, when they try to put that poor bastard in the same category as Michael Brown, their organization loses its credibility.

None of those examples are from a member of the Black Lives Matter campaign so we're back to the part where all because someone says a thing doesn't mean that they are necessarily a representative of that thing. You wouldn't want people to think Fred Phelps speaks on behalf of all Christians, would you?

One of those should have gone to an interview with the three women who founded the movement. My bad if I goofed. But does it really matter if those articles aren't in their mission statement? Those are all from legit sources for "news". All that racist shit is being pushed as fact.

Also, where does your knowledge of the BLM movement come from? Do you know the founders personally or have you scoured their website? I'm not being judgy here, I'm curious. You seem to know more about their actual feelings than all these media sources.

As to making your point - and the entire idea being racist - I disagree.

You're right of course. Putting the needs and desires of one race above all others is not racist in the least.

First I'd like to see your statistics when you claim that blacks aren't killed at a higher rate than other races, because the stats I can find support just that. I do see some stats quoted online that claim otherwise but they are sourced from police sources and police sources have been notoriously bad at providing proper statistics. Some would say they outright lie about some of those statistics. Let's focus on independent statistics to avoid bias and possible liars, shall we?

Good luck. An independent study was released yesterday by a black man who found there is no difference based on race and people shit all over it. (And let's be honest, if it found things the way they wanted it to, it would've been hailed.) So we also can't use the government or law enforcement stats because apparently they're all biased. I just did a google search and every link that came up was opinion pieces from unbiased places like Huff Post, Newsweek, Time, CNN, etc. (Weird how Fox doesn't get their links in there...)

FYI, the Native American one I saw or heard yesterday...somewhere I don't remember. It WAS a left wing source though, which surprised me. Don't remember where though. I generally have 20-30 tabs open at all times and I lose shit.

Maybe you can link some unbiased ones from the BLM website? They don't have an agenda. And at what point does anyone want to admit that culture is a part of this conversation?

But none of that matters and really this is a pointless conversation. End of the day, one race is trying to tell me that I need to be concerned about a ridiculously low number of them being killed by police, while I'm not supposed to be concerned about any other races including my own. Meanwhile, in Chicago there's a massacre every weekend and nobody, NOBODY gives a fuck.

So no, I'm not on board the BLM movement. Doesn't mean I don't think there's a problem. It just means I don't think we should be putting one race above others.

By the way, one forum member has been pointing out for years that police departments have insane levels of internal political issues, cronyism, under funding, too few police officers, etc., but I'm sure none of that are factors here.

It's clearly just racism.

[Leisher]

This is worth watching. He does address BLM, but it's more about black culture and black society needing to look inward.

[TPRJones]

Those are all from legit sources for "news".

There is no such thing anymore. At least none of the major media outlets come close to qualifying. They no longer conduct any sort of research and are worthlessly incompetent. They all just substitute improvisational talking heads and their own political biases for actual fact checking.

Also, where does your knowledge of the BLM movement come from? Do you know the founders personally or have you scoured their website? I'm not being judgy here, I'm curious. You seem to know more about their actual feelings than all these media sources.

I scoured their website and read a fair amount of the social media output of the founders. Which I guarantee not a single one of the "media sources" bothered to do because of their aforementioned complete incompetence. The media is outright misrepresenting the stance of the BLM.

Putting the needs and desires of one race above all others is not racist in the least.

My point is that the BLM movement does not do that. If you have been told it does then their stance has been misrepresented to you, whether by the worthless media or by all the racists that have latched onto it. Honestly at this point the phrase #BlackLivesMatter might have to be abandoned as it's been as thoroughly hijacked by racists as #Gamergate was hijacked by misogynists. Sadly there's this perception among some people that blacks can't be racist so they probably won't be able to perceive that problem and recover from it which is unfortunate since their original purpose was legitimate and necessary if we're to ever stem the tide of arbitrary executions and hatred of cops.

An independent study was released yesterday by a black man who found there is no difference based on race and people shit all over it.

Please point me to this?

So we also can't use the government or law enforcement stats because apparently they're all biased.

Sadly yes. Not because racism - racism isn't really the problem in any of this, it's really more about executing poor people - but because there are no reporting requirements and no controls over data quality. What official statistics there are are a horrendous pastiche of hundreds of different standards and measures that make no sense and many are internally contradictory. It makes the data around global warming look super legit in comparison.

And having solid data is a big problem. This is someone saying "hey, my house is on fire, can we get some water over here" and being told "any house could be on fire at any time, you aren't special" to which they reply "yes, and when your house is on fire I will help you but mine is on fire RIGHT NOW." It is based on the presumption that it is in fact currently a primarily black problem (which I think is misguided in that it's really a poor people problem but statistically poor people problems hurt blacks much more so fair enough), a perception which is certainly being reinforced by the media (which brings us back to how incompetent they are, so it could certainly be wrong). If it is true that the problem of police summarily executing innocents due to incompetence and then being systematically protected is not primarily focused on blacks (or at least impacting far more blacks even if the root cause is more about class) then the BLM does admittedly become problematic, but it is still ultimately intended to solve an immediate and seemingly catastrophic problem.

And at what point does anyone want to admit that culture is a part of this conversation?

Considering that's the whole point of the BLM movement, I guess right when the conversation started?

But none of that matters and really this is a pointless conversation. End of the day, one race is trying to tell me that I need to be concerned about a ridiculously low number of them being killed by police, while I'm not supposed to be concerned about any other races including my own.

End of the day your summary of what the goals and purpose of the BLM was is completely incorrect on all points. But you are right that none of it matters. It's become too muddied and poisonous to make a difference at this juncture. Hopefully the next iteration won't be so thoroughly destroyed by racist blacks and misinformed media pundits.

[TPRJones]

I just went back to catch up on the last month or so of what the three founders have been saying, and I'd have to agree that Alicia Garza has started buying in to the racist sentiments.

"White supremacy and capitalism are the underlying causes of state-sanctioned police orchestrated violence"

That's unfortunate. And some added communism for extra bonus points. Bummer, that.

[Leisher]

Yeah, sadly while I'm sure BLM was started with great intentions, it has become so overrun with a message of racism that even if the founders were still on point, which as you discovered they aren't, it's now something completely different. Kind of like how all these morons wear Che Guevara shirts thinking he was a hero of the people.

To me, the issue is not race. Black people aren't just randomly being killed due to the color of their skin. (I mean, I'm sure they are, but not just by police and it's not just black people as the 5 white officers killed in Dallas proves.) Is it a factor? Probably, but not in the blatantly racist way it's being portrayed. There are so many other factors at play that contribute to these shootings, factors I've detailed here for years, but it's impossible to sit down and have a rational dialogue because the nutjobs and scumbags in it only for their own interests are screaming over the rational people and the MSM eats that shit up.

I was going to point to an example on the forum here to solidify my point, but I'm not in the mood for that conversation that will spark.

Also, I found the study I referenced. FB was kind enough to put it back on their "front page" of news again. It had been there previously on Wednesday. That's written by a black professor at Harvard. And yes, I've seen all the arguments against the study.

[Leisher]

BLM at the DNC not being racist in the slightest.

[Vince]

Black people are not excited about voting for Hillary. BLM is a "Get out the vote" initiative for the black community.

[Malcolm]

Anti-American protesters threw Old Glory on the ground. They stomped on the flag and then set it ablaze.

I can't even begin to imagine the anti-American hatred they harbor in their hearts. I can’t begin to comprehend their contempt for those who fought and died for the stars and stripes.

Protected speech. Suck it.

[GORDON]

Hey remember, "For the first time in my life I am proud of my country?"

It took her husband getting nominated for president for her rich ass to finally have that feeling.

[Vince]

I saw a reporters tweet from Monday saying that Bernie supporters wer looking for an American flag to burn, but couldn't come up with on at the convention. Most Democrat tweet ever.

[Leisher]

This is kind of becoming our BLM thread, and this is related, so...

Bow Wow says he can't relate to black issues, and the internet tells him how he should feel.

The hypocrisy, ignorance, and bullying that is presented here by people who are acting like they're morally and intellectually superior is mind blowing.