Don't want a man watching you undress?

[TPRJones]

So you insist that they conform their lives to your ideas of reality instead of their own experiences that they have from their own lives. Why is your experience and viewpoint any more valid than their own? And why should they upend their lives and be miserable just to satisfy you?

EDIT: It occurs to me that I should elaborate. You keep claiming that science is on your side, but science cannot yet quantify the mind the way it can the mass of an elephant, so your analogy is invalid. When we have figured out how to read thoughts and emotions as easily as weighing an elephant then it will fit. Until then you are just insisting you are right and they are wrong with no real basis.



Edited By TPRJones on 1425935046

[Vince]

Statistically speaking, they are just as miserable when they pretend to be of a sex as when they don't as evidenced by the rates of suicide of pre and post op transsexuals. Which goes back to Gordo's supposition that we're dealing with mental illness rather than a gender crisis.

[TPRJones]

Statistically speaking, they are just as miserable when they pretend to be of a sex as when they don't as evidenced by the rates of suicide of pre and post op transsexuals.

Most of that seems to come from how much the rest of society hates them. Trans people tend to get hatred from both directions, as the gays aren't any better at accepting them than the straight are of accepting the gays.

Statistically speaking, that is.

[Vince]

Eh... I don't really care what they do as far as how they dress or what they get chopped off or sewed on. I go back to my original statement that if you have a penis you use the penis dressing room. If you don't you use the non-penis dressing room. Thems the rules.

I'm pretty sure John Hopkins probably factored in all the hurt feelings when they decided to stop the chopping off and sewing on because they consider it a mental illness now.

[Malcolm]

This is the Scientific Method and it is bulletproof.

No, it's not. Again, Hume.

Hume's argument is that we cannot rationally justify the claim that nature will continue to be uniform, as justification comes in only two varieties—demonstrative reasoning and probable reasoning—and both of these are inadequate. With regard to demonstrative reasoning, Hume argues that the uniformity principle cannot be demonstrated, as it is "consistent and conceivable" that nature might stop being regular. Turning to probable reasoning, Hume argues that we cannot hold that nature will continue to be uniform because it has been in the past. As this is using the very sort of reasoning (induction) that is under question, it would be circular reasoning. Thus, no form of justification will rationally warrant our inductive inferences.

Which goes back to Gordo's supposition that we're dealing with mental illness rather than a gender crisis.

I'd bet damn near 99.9% of people on this planet could qualify as "mentally ill." Not being absolutely confident in your sexuality can do that to you. There are a billion other things you could substitute in place of "sexuality" and they'd all be true.

I go back to my original statement that if you have a penis you use the penis dressing room. If you don't you use the non-penis dressing room. Thems the rules.

What do you plan to do with the hermaphrodites?

"Why are their brains wired abnormally?" which leads to the question "And can it be fixed?" which leads to the protests of, "There's nothing to fix!" Which is what someone irrational would say.

There is nothing irrational about that conclusion. You are supposing their brains aren't wired "correctly," whatever that is.

I'm pretty sure John Hopkins probably factored in all the hurt feelings when they decided to stop the chopping off and sewing on because they consider it a mental illness now.

I think they might be stopping because the improvement to the "woman trapped in a man's body" condition it provides isn't offset sufficiently by the drastic physical modification. That's quite a way from calling someone "mentally ill," it's saying the potential physical liabilities aren't worth the potential psychological gain in enough cases, statistically speaking.



Edited By Malcolm on 1425935996

[TheCatt]

Now, take that same logic and process and apply it to a human with a penis and testicles, and no vagina, uterus, or ovaries.

Did you read my sex and gender post?

[GORDON]

Now, take that same logic and process and apply it to a human with a penis and testicles, and no vagina, uterus, or ovaries.

Did you read my sex and gender post?

That's why I said sex and not gender.

Addressing TPR, and I am on my phone now so quoting is not easy, I am not telling them to do shit, I am telling them that I will not accept abnormality as normal when there is more evidential fact that my perception is more valid than theirs. They can walk around thinking they are the opposite sex or ponies or a lamp, and they can stick their female cock in anything they want, and they can enter into a six-way marriage. I don't give a fuck. I won't do a thing to stop them. In will also think it is a behavioral abberation, and if they want to judge me for living my life the way I want they can go to hell.

[Vince]

Which goes back to Gordo's supposition that we're dealing with mental illness rather than a gender crisis.

I'd bet damn near 99.9% of people on this planet could qualify as "mentally ill." Not being absolutely confident in your sexuality can do that to you. There are a billion other things you could substitute in place of "sexuality" and they'd all be true.

The same percentage of people that kill themselves because they think they are in a body with the wrong sex that DON'T have a sexual reassignment surgery kill themselves when they DO have the reassignment surgery. Not to mention a number that decide after the surgery that it was a mistake. These taken together strongly indicate that there is a problem that is unrelated to the sex of the body they're in.

I go back to my original statement that if you have a penis you use the penis dressing room. If you don't you use the non-penis dressing room. Thems the rules.

What do you plan to do with the hermaphrodites?

If they don't have a penis they go to the non-penis room. It's pretty much a binary system that isn't hard to figure out.

[TPRJones]

I won't do a thing to stop them.

Great, then what the hell are we arguing about? Now can you please tell the other people who think like you do about this to also leave them alone and let them live their lives how they want to?

In will also think it is a behavioral abberation, and if they want to judge me for living my life the way I want they can go to hell.

And I'm sure the feeling would be mutual.

[TPRJones]

If they don't have a penis they go to the non-penis room. It's pretty much a binary system that isn't hard to figure out.

So all us penis-havers are one unfortunate accident - or one really bad breakup - away from switching restrooms? And doesn't this logic apply to post-op transexuals and some extreme body mod guys as well?

Hell, last time I went swimming in a frozen lake I should probably have switched rooms for the day, based on this logic.



Edited By TPRJones on 1425936838

[GORDON]

And that is absolutely fine. They can think of me whatever they want, but I still think they are broken. I don't think being broken implies any sort of moral deficiency, either, before anyone suggests that.

I am not responsible for the other rational people who view things rationally. If they have some bigotry or bias that leads to violence, they also have a mental problem, as far as I am concerned, and also need to be fixed.

[TPRJones]

I dispute that your position is rational as it is based on several fundamental assumptions about human psychology and neurophysiology for which you have zero proof and have instead substituted your own presumptions in the place of actual scientific evidence. But otherwise I think we can see eye to eye.



Edited By TPRJones on 1425936962

[GORDON]

But the scientic evidence that exists agrees with me.

[Vince]

I won't do a thing to stop them.

Great, then what the hell are we arguing about? Now can you please tell the other people who think like you do about this to also leave them alone and let them live their lives how they want to?

To be fair, what started this conversation was someone with a penis saying he identified as someone without a penis and had to be allowed to use the non-penis dressing room, which made the actual non-penis club members uncomfortable. I don't think the issue with the non-penis members was how penised individual was living their life, but rather where the penised individual was changing his clothes while at the club.

For the record, I don't mind a penis confused penised club member in the penis dressing room. A penis confused non-penis member still needs to be in the non-penised locker room.

[Vince]

If they don't have a penis they go to the non-penis room. It's pretty much a binary system that isn't hard to figure out.

So all us penis-havers are one unfortunate accident - or one really bad breakup - away from switching restrooms? And doesn't this logic apply to post-op transexuals and some extreme body mod guys as well?

Hell, last time I went swimming in a frozen lake I should probably have switched rooms for the day, based on this logic.

Based on this logic I should be a porn star because I really think I have a 12 inch cock.

[TPRJones]

So does that mean you classify people that used to have a penis as still having a penis even when they no longer have a penis?

That complicates your simple binary definition.

[TPRJones]

But the scientic evidence that exists agrees with me.

The same was true of Aristotle's understanding of physics, but he sure turned out to be wrong about almost everything.

[Malcolm]

These taken together strongly indicate that there is a problem that is unrelated to the sex of the body they're in.

I think it strongly indicates our medical techniques are limited with respect to sex change operations. If you could flip your physical sex from male to female as easy as popping in coloured contacts to change your eyes, I think those numbers would be vastly different. As it stands, sex changes are mainly cosmetic surgeries with a fuckton of hormones under the hood. The "problem" is that the cells in your body kind of get forced into picking male or female. Your psyche doesn't and it doesn't like compromise.

[Vince]

So does that mean you classify people that used to have a penis as still having a penis even when they no longer have a penis?

That complicates your simple binary definition.

No, the only time the used to be penis owner gets to use the penis locker room is if the said penis was lost to a jilted sasquatch or a botched alien abduction.

No Loch Ness monster BS though, because everyone knows the Loch Ness monster's fake.

[Malcolm]

No, the only time the used to be penis owner gets to use the penis locker room is if the said penis was lost to a jilted sasquatch or a botched alien abduction.

Good thing these dudes aren't around anymore.

Apparently many husbands could not believe that their wives were engaging in such affairs as those husbands didn't understand that castrati's genitalia in general still functioned.

Got to be a blow to your manhood if your wife's cheating on you with an overgrown boy who never made it past puberty and makes a living performing operatic roles in drag.



Edited By Malcolm on 1425939083