The College Thread

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TheCatt
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Post by TheCatt »

Maybe it was dance class?
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Post by GORDON »

This was posted on my kid's college's parent page. Just a copy/paste from elsewhere, I know not what.

edit - on posting, I now see "Wall Street Journal." Heh. Skimmed over that line earlier. My bad.

(Catt Adding link to article: https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-i-saw ... _permalink )
What I Saw at Columbia’s Demonstration
The Wall Street Journal, Editorial by Peggy Noonan, May 4-5, 2024, Page A13.
"Some thoughts on the Columbia protests, beginning with some bottom lines.
Success for the protesters would have required the encampments and demonstrations to continue through the semester, possibly into the summer. Instead, they have been stopped. Someone won and someone lost, and the demonstrators and their backers didn’t win.
Law-enforcement agencies should stop making vague references to “outside agitators” and funding lines and tell us what they know. That would help us understand what happened on campuses the past few weeks, and help forestall a rerun. Also: just clear the air.
The demonstrations, which sometimes became riots, clarified some things, maybe for the first time in generations. America is a country of First Amendment rights, whether the students love our Constitution or not. It is a nation that supports the right to gather and protest. It respects the right to yell and write and put out the truth as you see it. It understands and accepts peaceful demonstrations. But it doesn’t respect breaking our laws. It doesn’t support violence as a tool or tactic and will move against it.
It isn’t bad to re-establish these baseline principles.
Here is where a lot of minds rightly go when we think of the words “student demonstration”: Young people like to be part of something big and passionate. They want to be part of history. “Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive, / But to be young was very heaven!” They want to care. It’s romantic to be a revolutionary and pleasurable to claim fierce commitments. It’s good to show you’re a force in the world, that you’ll march for the right and moral thing. Critical thinking isn’t your strong suit, emotion is. All this is part of it, certainly for the nice kids, and there are always nice kids.
However. A characteristic of these demonstrators was also a primary tactic: the covering of their faces, the hiding of their identities. This struck me as sinister. They see themselves as replicating the 1968 antiwar protests, but those protesters didn’t hide who they were, they didn’t wear masks. Students the past two weeks did, to make observers feel menaced—some big, faceless force is enraged, occupying, and marching toward you.
I was told when I went to the Columbia campus on Tuesday that the demonstrators wish not to be identified by school authorities and subject to discipline; that, as technological sophisticates, they wish to avoid facial-recognition software; that they wish not to limit their future prospects, including employment opportunities. All or some of that could be true, but I also think they do it to confer an air of menace, and because they are cowardly. They won’t stand where they stand and pay the price. But half of life is standing where you stand and paying the price. They see themselves as indignant, sincere and uniquely vulnerable. They looked to me more cosseted and indulged.
I was at Columbia hours before the police came in and liberated Hamilton Hall from its occupiers. Unlike protesters of the past, who were usually eager to share with others what they thought and why, these demonstrators would generally not speak or make eye contact with members of the press, or, as they say, “corporate media.”
I was on a bench taking notes as a group of young women, all in sunglasses, masks, and kaffiyehs, walked by. “Friends, please come say hello and tell me what you think,” I called. They marched past, not making eye contact, save one, a beautiful girl of about 20. “I’m not trained,” she said. Which is what they’re instructed to say to corporate-media representatives who will twist your words. “I’m barely trained, you’re safe,” I called, and she laughed and half-halted. But her friends gave her a look and she conformed.
I watched small demonstrations of dozens: “Israel bombs, Columbia pays! How many kids did you kill today?”
In front of Hamilton Hall, students milled about and chanted. From a second-floor open window, next to the window police would enter that night, two male students with a big rough rope were hauling up food—vegetable sandwiches on wheat bread, Dunkin’ Donuts—from the first floor entrance way. They hauled that black plastic supermarket hand cart up like they were re-enacting the siege of Sevastopol. There was a lot of re-enacting going on.
What struck me, beyond the chanting and bull horns, is that the demonstrators didn’t seem to want to make progress on questions you’d think would engage them. If they cared about the pummeling of Gaza, about overall U.S. policy in the Mideast, or the destructive impact of Benjamin Netanyahu’s leadership in Israel, half of New York City would march alongside them. But they don’t want allies. Nor did they seem interested in marching in compassion for the people of Gaza.
They weren’t a compassionate group. They weren’t for anything, they were against something: the Israeli state, which they’d like to see disappear, and those who support it.
The night the New York City Police Department was taking back Hamilton Hall I spoke with a friend who counsels students at Columbia. He said many students who’d sought him out the past few weeks had mixed or unsure feelings about Israel and were trying to think it through. The demonstrators weren’t.
Those students don’t believe the terrorist organization Hamas was unjustified in its actions on Oct. 7, he said. They are “totally on board with neo-Marxist oppressor-oppressed ideology.” They don’t have compassion for Gaza and its people “any more than they’ve had compassion for Ukraine.” They are driven by an anti-Israeli animus that is also and inextricably an anti-American animus. “They see themselves as great freedom fighters—they are Mandela in South Africa.”
An important thing now is that the students of the class of ’24, at Columbia and most other schools, will be allowed to graduate in the usual ceremony, with the usual celebrations. Most of them had been denied a high-school graduation because of the pandemic. They were robbed of steady classroom instruction when they entered college. They have been denied so many of the signposts of academic and personal effort. It would have been the injustice of injustices if they had been robbed of this final undergraduate graduation ceremony on May 15. Columbia’s President Minouche Shafik was prudent, and perhaps spirited, in asking the police to stay on campus until two days after the commencement.
Everyone is tired of disorder. Our culture, our politics, our flailing media world—everything seems chaotic, on the edge of something.
The Vietnam demonstrations came to a country at relative peace with itself and said: Wake up! The Hamas demonstrations come to a country that hasn’t been at peace with itself in a long time. It watched, and thought: More jarring hell from kids with blood in their eyes making demands.
The people of my liberal-left town were relieved to see the NYPD come in, drag the protesters away, restore order, and let people clean things up.
People want peacefulness. They want to go about their lives. It’s not too much to ask."
In summary, most kids today suck, are empty, and embrace anonymous mob violence.

We did our personal children an injustice, perhaps, by ensuring they'd never fully fit in with their peers. Ours are the ones who would have been going to their advisor to better understand the issue, but that won't stop the mob from burning down a hall, next time, since they know the milder stuff doesn't work.

The center cannot hold.
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Post by Leisher »

"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
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Post by Leisher »

A couple are legit or seem to be applicable elsewhere, but some are just blatant wastes of money. Do people look at potential lifetime earnings or even potential jobs/careers when picking a major?
"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
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Post by GORDON »

Most of those are fine, if they're already rich.

The great majority of people don't understand that a lot of these majors are for people who don't actually need a real job. They got $50k deep in debt and think there's any demand for what they've learned.
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Post by TheCatt »

John Adams, the 2nd President of the United States, once said
"I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain."
Not enough of their parents studied the good stuff
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Post by GORDON »

Seriously, too many people think "you can be whatever you want to be" is still true if you don't have other sources of funding.

My kid has become very fiscally conservative... he hates spending money. He's chosen his higher education based on what has the highest return for his education-dollar-expenditure. I'm doing my best to make sure he has the most options/paths to happiness..... based on what I wish I'd done. For me, that means freedom, competency, and being master of his own life. I hope it applies to him.

Saw a line the other day, "It's weird how no one who went into trade schools need debt forgiveness."
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Post by TheCatt »

I went to UNC cuz it was cheap as fuck, and had a good rep and lots of options.
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Post by GORDON »

My kid is always talking about transferring out to somewhere cheaper.

I nudged him to Miami, gently. I wanted him to have a taste of.......... being surrounded by a higher standard of living than he grew up with. Surrounded by rich kids, not half-ass farmers with chickens and making homemade jerky.

He did well his first year, and when I picked him up I reminded him of the conversation we had at the beginning of the year: "Give Miami one year, and if you still want to transfer I'll help any way I can." He said he does want to transfer, "but at this point that's a pain in the ass."

He talks about some college in Montana. Inexpensive, highly reputable in some field or another, but the savings would be lost with out-of-state-student fees.
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Post by Leisher »

GORDON wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 12:25 pm Saw a line the other day, "It's weird how no one who went into trade schools need debt forgiveness."
I'm going to use that going forward.
GORDON wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 12:51 pm but the savings would be lost with out-of-state-student fees.
Look into scholarships. It's amazing how many are out there.
"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
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Post by GORDON »

Leisher wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 12:56 pm
GORDON wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 12:51 pm but the savings would be lost with out-of-state-student fees.
Look into scholarships. It's amazing how many are out there.
Very much. My kid is getting $5k per year from the Marine Corps Foundation, for example...... which required more work in the application that the college application, itself.

I'm very unhappy with his high school college advisor. She didn't teach us shit. Turns out she didn't care about any kid who wasn't heading to the ivy league. I didn't know a thing about the college application process, or any tips or tricks, until I learned them on my own. So we missed opportunities.

I've thought about writing the school a letter, about her.
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Post by Leisher »

GORDON wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:03 pm I've thought about writing the school a letter, about her.
You should. It's the only way change gets made.
"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
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Post by Leisher »

More amazing majors that will make them millions.
"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
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Post by GORDON »

For those keeping track at home, my kid got his FAFSA info TODAY. Like half a year late. I feel bad for the first year kids who had to make college decisions with zero financial info. They were also the kids that the COVID quarantines fucked over.

I bet the project managers get huge raises and no repercussions.
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Post by GORDON »

Summer abroad in Seoul, South Korea has begun. He had a fun few days kicking around Tokyo, and is navigating international airports with the greatest of ease. The rest of "summer abroad" kids travelled as a group, because they needed someone holding hands, in charge. My kid laughs at such ideas and went solo with the extra long layover in Tokyo. He's got a dorm room, and already hit the town with a gaggle of new European friends, of whom my kid is the youngest by 5 years. For some reason Freshman/sophomores don't typically do semesters abroad? IDK. But the drinking age in SK is 19, and they judge the age by "if you turn 19 this year, then you're 19," so he already got kind of drunk and peed on the wall of the Sierra Leone embassy.
Screenshot 2024-06-25 122443.jpg
Going to be a fun summer for him, I think.
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Post by Leisher »

"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
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Post by TheCatt »

Don't go to dippy little private colleges at risk of closing.
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Post by Leisher »

Debate teams are different than what I remember. Lots of N bombs and stuttering now. Doesn't seem like they stayed on point either.
"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
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Post by TheCatt »

That video is 10 years old. People complained then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_Exa ... ssociation
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Post by Leisher »

TheCatt wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2024 7:49 am That video is 10 years old. People complained then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_Exa ... ssociation
Still valid. Also, are you telling me we can't bring up things from the past, because you're going to disarm a LOT of people. :D

Also, have things improved or is this still the standard?

From the Wiki:
In 2014, despite winning the tournament, the team from Towson University was criticized by observers for referencing racial slurs, failing to adhere to standard debate practices and arguing a topic unrelated to the proposed resolution. These types of debate strategies "[have] received mainstream acceptance, sympathy, and awards", despite objections and complaints from tournament participants, labelling the strategies as offensive.[3] In the wake of this controversy, CEDA President Paul Mabrey stated in an official CEDA video of that the accusations of poor preparation and incomprehensibility "...[R]epresent the worst of our human bigotry. These attacks on Towson, Oklahoma, and others in our debate community are motivated by racism and fear."[5]
No Paul, you're the problem, not the critics. The critics are 100% correct. Debates aren't rap concerts filled with profanities and talking about whatever you want, including completely avoiding the topic at hand. That's not debate. That's performance art. A debate is a structure discussion on a specific topic. By claiming this valid criticism is racism, you're the one being racist.
"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
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