|
|
| Post Number: 101
|
TheCatt 
Top 2%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 22951
Joined: May 2004
|
 |
Posted on: Apr. 02 2015,18:54 |
|
   |
Baking a cake for someone's wedding does not violate religious beliefs. Or, should not. They're not the officiant. They are not making the wedding happen. If they're religious beliefs are that important such that they feel violated, then they should not operate a public business. That's their choice.
--------------
It's not me, it's someone else.
|
 |
|
|
| Post Number: 102
|
TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 12384
Joined: May 2004
|
|
Posted on: Apr. 02 2015,19:18 |
|
 |
QUOTE ...but it doesn't seem like you've ever held a deeply held spiritual belief...
This is true. I grew up going to church because my family was deeply religious. I clearly remember when I was about six I realized that the adults around me actually believed that stuff and it wasn't just all a silly game of make believe. Then I had to spend the rest of my childhood years pretending I agreed with it all because otherwise I would have been disowned by my family. My personal experiences with faith have been ... rather ugly. I admit that.
And I do understand your point. At least we can agree this isn't a simple black and white matter. But when freedom of religion collides with civil rights you have to pick a side. I will side with civil rights in all but the most extreme of cases. And I can understand the stance of those who don't even have that caveat even if I don't quite agree.
QUOTE For the homosexual community to FORCE someone to go against their deeply held religious beliefs would be about as appropriate as the religious community to force the gay community to have straight sex.
Well, that there describes most of the history of homosexuality in this country up until just a handful of decades ago. It's still the case in some parts of the country, at least in the sense that if you want to still have any of your family in your life you better just stuff that gay into the closet and pretend.
But two wrongs don't make a right and I wouldn't advocate for the pendulum swinging too so far against freedom of religion that we start putting people in jail for being Christian.
--------------
Vidi Perfutui Veni
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 103
|
|
|
| Post Number: 104
|
Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
|
|
Posted on: Apr. 02 2015,21:37 |
|
|
QUOTE I'm allowed my God given right to disagree with them.
The force of the US gov't is giving you rights, and you are limited in how you exercise them. Â Religious beliefs are not a blanket license to do anything you want because you think a higher power wants you to. Â Otherwise, I'm going to start the "everyone needs to give me 50% of their paycheck" faith and retire.
QUOTE There's a lot to be said for keeping your hole shut for the sake of public tranquility.
Fuck that. Â Rocking the boat is the only way to keep society fucking honest. Â I was born to fuck with tranquility. Â Tranquility is awesome for philosophy and contemplation on a temporary basis. Â Great for relaxing. Â Boring as everloving fuck after not that long. Â Black holes swallowing up all the planets in the solar system will make things real tranquil after a bit. Â I don't want to be around then.
QUOTE Just as a Quaker can claim conscientious objector status when it comes to the draft, that doesn't mean Quakers hate marines.
A biz ain't the same as a draft. Â Once's compulsory; one's not. Â Also, the objector in question is denying their alleged duties as a citizen of some nation. Â That's not a deal between biz owner and client or even two private citizens.
QUOTE Our nation was first pioneered by Puritans that knowingly risked death at sea and then death by starvation once they got here.
Yeah, and their interpretation of what's just is often times fucking insane. Â To quote Robin Williams...
QUOTE Then the Puritans broke away from the Calvinists, our ancestors, people so uptight, the English kicked them out.
Their surviving a dangerous boat ride doesn't make them gurus about founding republics nor does it mean their laws are 100% relevant to modern times and attitudes. Â Homosexuality was classified as a mental illness until kind of recently.
QUOTE I clearly remember when I was about six I realized that the adults around me actually believed that stuff and it wasn't just all a silly game of make believe.
I always figured if god wanted me to worship him, he'd make life a lot simpler. Â Overly complex design is the mark of an inferior engineer.
QUOTE If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One!
Edited by Malcolm on Apr. 02 2015,21:39
--------------
Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 105
|
|
|
| Post Number: 106
|
Vince
I make sweet, sweet love to my legally licenced copy of Microsoft Vista.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 5016
Joined: May 2004
|
|
Posted on: Apr. 03 2015,04:00 |
|
|
(TPRJones @ Apr. 02 2015,21:18)
QUOTE Then I had to spend the rest of my childhood years pretending I agreed with it all because otherwise I would have been disowned by my family. Â My personal experiences with faith have been ... rather ugly. Â I admit that.
I'm really sorry for that. I had some ugliness which I was fortunate didn't come from my family, but I can certainly appreciate that.
QUOTE And I do understand your point. Â At least we can agree this isn't a simple black and white matter. Â But when freedom of religion collides with civil rights you have to pick a side. Â I will side with civil rights in all but the most extreme of cases. Â And I can understand the stance of those who don't even have that caveat even if I don't quite agree. Thank you. It sometimes feels that the opponents of this believe less in "freedom of religion" and only in "freedom of going to church" and don't understand that those aren't the same thing.
I think if both side can at least acknowledge the other side having a valid point, then that might be an actual starting point for debate.
As I get older, my default mode is starting from "leave people alone". If the answer is to be lawsuits or jail time or a fine (regardless of the issue at hand) I am looking for a compelling justification to do it. If it violates the person's rights it better be a super justification. And I don't see how they can weaken just part of the first amendment. Could start a dangerous precedent.
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 107
|
|
|
| Post Number: 108
|
|
|
| Post Number: 109
|
TheCatt
Top 2%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 22951
Joined: May 2004
|
|
Posted on: Apr. 03 2015,05:18 |
|
|
(Vince @ Apr. 03 2015,07:12)
QUOTE
(TheCatt @ Apr. 03 2015,06:07)
QUOTE Christians can be bakers all they want, they just cannot pick and choose their clients as a place of public accommodation. They aren't refusing the client. Â All of these cases have served the clients before in other capacities.
Yes, they are refusing the client.
--------------
It's not me, it's someone else.
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 110
|
Vince
I make sweet, sweet love to my legally licenced copy of Microsoft Vista.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 5016
Joined: May 2004
|
|
Posted on: Apr. 03 2015,05:22 |
|
|
If a photographer is asked to photograph a wedding and is told it's going to be at a nudist camp, does he have the right to refuse?
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 111
|
GORDON
90%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 36125
Joined: Jun. 2004
|
|
Posted on: Apr. 03 2015,05:30 |
|
|
I think I come down on the side of the bakers. People like to yell, "The first amendment means the government can't restrict your speech, people are allowed to boycott Chic-Fil-A all they want because there is a price for having unpopular opinions!" To me that seems like a 2 way street. The government should not be allowed to restrict people from being gay, but at the same time it isn't the government that is choosing to not bake a cake for a gay wedding.
"I don't want to bake you a cake."
"Too bad, do it anyway, or you will be forced to do it."
Doesn't sit right with me.
--------------
I don't give a fuck!
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 112
|
|
|
| Post Number: 113
|
GORDON
90%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 36125
Joined: Jun. 2004
|
|
Posted on: Apr. 03 2015,05:34 |
|
|
That census report said, what, 2% of the population was gay? Suggests to me that the majority of hate is coming from the White Knights, not the gays, themselves.
Clarification of my above statement: I agree with the right of the bakers to refuse the job. If they said they'd do it then on the wedding day said "Nope, don't agree with this," then there is a breach of contract and they should lose a civil lawsuit.
--------------
I don't give a fuck!
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 114
|
Vince
I make sweet, sweet love to my legally licenced copy of Microsoft Vista.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 5016
Joined: May 2004
|
|
Posted on: Apr. 03 2015,05:47 |
|
|
Agreed. Â I've had this feeling that the "freedom from religion" crowd has been driving this much harder than the gay community. Â Most of the homosexuals I've known tend to be positive people. Â They were less like Perez Hilton and more like... hmmm... for some reason it's only the ugly ones that get air time.
At any rate, they are positive people. Â They wouldn't WANT a baker or photographer or anyone else there that didn't see it as a joyful event. Â And really who would? Â Let's face it, the ratio of gay bakers and florists to straight Christians that refuse to do gay weddings is probably 10:1. Â Not even including the straight bakers and florists that are willing to do it.
To the agitators, this isn't a problem with homosexual being denied service. Â This is a problem with Christians being Christians.
And agree with it being a dick move to back out at the last minute. Â The case people are thinking of I believe was a gay wedding at a church where they bailed the day of (preacher bailed on use of church).
Edited by Vince on Apr. 03 2015,05:51
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 115
|
Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
|
|
Posted on: Apr. 03 2015,07:25 |
|
|
QUOTE The government should not be allowed to restrict people from being gay, but at the same time it isn't the government that is choosing to not bake a cake for a gay wedding.
A private citizen is not the same as a fucking biz. Â If it's one person doing a favour for someone else and they happen to get compensated, cool. Â If they can pay their rent/mortgage that way, ever better. Â I'm willing to bet they don't have enough contacts to keep busy and financially solvent. Â If you want the right to refuse service for this sort of reason, then you're not a biz owner with a sole proprietorship. Â You're a dude with a freelance gig that's self-employed. Â If you want legal status as a biz, then you play by the goddamn, motherfucking rules EVERY OTHER BIZ has to. Â You do not get special treatment because your religion gets to trump those rules. Â You are a biz; not a church. Â If you can't separate your beliefs from your job, then you don't get to make be that kind of legal entity and don't get to be a biz owner. Â The right to operate a biz carries as much weight as the right to be gay as far as the Bill of Rights goes.
QUOTE To the agitators, this isn't a problem with homosexual being denied service. Â This is a problem with Christians being Christians.
No. Â It is a problem of the gays being denied service. Â This is the same speech I'd give to any Jew, Muslim, Taoist, Shintoist, Zoroastrianist, Hindu, Voodoo, or Sikh follower who tried to pull the same bullshit. Â I don't care what faith is proclaiming this type of thing. Â I don't care how many devout they have, I don't care how old their books are, I don't care what metaphysical justification (if any) is provided for it, I don't even care how deep the belief is. Â
It's the same speech I'd give to someone if their religion told them everyone with brown eyes was an emissary of the devil and they couldn't support the "brown lifestyle." Â Hate the pigments in the iris, love the person. That faith might even give people an out. "Just keep your eyelids sewn shut for the rest of your life and we'll be cool with you."
Edited by Malcolm on Apr. 03 2015,07:30
--------------
Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 116
|
GORDON
90%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 36125
Joined: Jun. 2004
|
|
Posted on: Apr. 03 2015,07:30 |
|
|
If I owned a bakery and some Marines in uniform told me they wanted me to cater for a banquet for their "Keep fags out of the military" meeting, and I will do it or else, I would tell them to go fuck themselves.
My attitude has nothing to do with homosexuals, and has everything to do with being compelled to do something against my will, and no matter how many times you say "fucking" in your arguments it is not going to make me not have a problem with authority.
--------------
I don't give a fuck!
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 117
|
|
|
| Post Number: 118
|
GORDON
90%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 36125
Joined: Jun. 2004
|
|
Posted on: Apr. 03 2015,07:34 |
|
|
If they told me I would bake a cake for the Marine Corps Ball, "Or else," I will still tell them to go fuck themselves. They can say please.
Which is my point.
--------------
I don't give a fuck!
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 119
|
Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
|
|
Posted on: Apr. 03 2015,07:37 |
|
|
When did this become an argument about politeness? Did they just walk in and say, "Bake me a cake, bitch?"
--------------
Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
|
|
|
|
| Post Number: 120
|
Vince
I make sweet, sweet love to my legally licenced copy of Microsoft Vista.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 5016
Joined: May 2004
|
|
Posted on: Apr. 03 2015,07:38 |
|
|
(Malcolm @ Apr. 03 2015,09:25)
QUOTE QUOTE The government should not be allowed to restrict people from being gay, but at the same time it isn't the government that is choosing to not bake a cake for a gay wedding. A private citizen is not the same as a fucking biz. Â If it's one person doing a favour for someone else and they happen to get compensated, cool. Â If they can pay their rent/mortgage that way, ever better. Â I'm willing to bet they don't have enough contacts to keep busy and financially solvent. Â If you want the right to refuse service for this sort of reason, then you're not a biz owner with a sole proprietorship. Â You're a dude with a freelance gig that's self-employed. Â If you want legal status as a biz, then you play by the goddamn, motherfucking rules EVERY OTHER BIZ has to. Â You do not get special treatment because your religion gets to trump those rules. Â You are a biz; not a church. Â If you can't separate your beliefs from your job, then you don't get to make be that kind of legal entity and don't get to be a biz owner. Â The right to operate a biz carries as much weight as the right to be gay as far as the Bill of Rights goes. QUOTE To the agitators, this isn't a problem with homosexual being denied service. Â This is a problem with Christians being Christians. No. Â It is a problem of the gays being denied service. Â This is the same speech I'd give to any Jew, Muslim, Taoist, Shintoist, Zoroastrianist, Hindu, Voodoo, or Sikh follower who tried to pull the same bullshit. Â I don't care what faith is proclaiming this type of thing. Â I don't care how many devout they have, I don't care how old their books are, I don't care what metaphysical justification (if any) is provided for it, I don't even care how deep the belief is. Â It's the same speech I'd give to someone if their religion told them everyone with brown eyes was an emissary of the devil and they couldn't support the "brown lifestyle." Â Hate the pigments in the iris, love the person. Â That faith might even give people an out. Â "Just keep your eyelids sewn shut for the rest of your life and we'll be cool with you."
I'll keep you in my prayers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
