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Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 2:36 pm
by GORDON
Had to shorten the thread title, but it applies. TFA is about how kids with fathers who play an active role in their lives are much more likely to graduate college.
http://www.news.com.au/lifesty....6755837
I like stories that confirm my biases.
Many feminists have been on a crusade to get fathers to behave more like mothers, yet it seems dads actually do some vital work by counterbalancing the helicopter parenting (read: helicopter mothering) that seems to dominate American middle-class homes these days.
Edited By GORDON on 1399747055
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 12:02 pm
by TPRJones
While I don't disagree at all with their conclusions on the nature of fatherhood, I must say that "graduated college" is an extremely useless measure if you are trying to measure success at life these days.
How many of those college grads are living back in mom and dad's basement at some point after graduation? I bet it's a big percentage. That's hardly what I call successful.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 12:14 pm
by Malcolm
TPRJones wrote:While I don't disagree at all with their conclusions on the nature of fatherhood, I must say that "graduated college" is an extremely useless measure if you are trying to measure success at life these days.
How many of those college grads are living back in mom and dad's basement at some point after graduation? I bet it's a big percentage. That's hardly what I call successful.
Think of how nice that psychology degrees looks hanging over the couch down there, though. Sure, it might take you a couple months of saving from the barista job you landed to get it framed, but don't you feel better knowing a four-year degree has secured your future? And with only a measly $10-20K price tag. Such a bargain.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 12:34 pm
by TheCatt
TPRJones wrote:While I don't disagree at all with their conclusions on the nature of fatherhood, I must say that "graduated college" is an extremely useless measure if you are trying to measure success at life these days.
How many of those college grads are living back in mom and dad's basement at some point after graduation? I bet it's a big percentage. That's hardly what I call successful.
In aggregate, it's seems to be a pretty useful indicator.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 12:37 pm
by TPRJones
Meh, even according to that article it's not really a measure of success as much as a measure of a lower average level of failure.
“There’s a reason we call this report ‘The Rising Cost of Not Going to College,'” says Paul Taylor, executive vice president of special projects at the Pew Research Center.
“The driver of that widening is not so much that today’s college graduates are doing better than yesterday’s college graduates are doing; it’s that today’s high school-only graduates are doing worse than yesterday’s high school-only graduates"
Edited By TPRJones on 1399912760
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 12:42 pm
by TheCatt
TPRJones wrote:Meh, even according to that article it's not really a measure of success as much as a measure of a lower average level of failure.
“There’s a reason we call this report ‘The Rising Cost of Not Going to College,'” says Paul Taylor, executive vice president of special projects at the Pew Research Center.
“The driver of that widening is not so much that today’s college graduates are doing better than yesterday’s college graduates are doing; it’s that today’s high school-only graduates are doing worse than yesterday’s high school-only graduates"
At this point you're just making up words and using apocryphal data.
If success isn't avoiding failure, then what is it?
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 1:14 pm
by Malcolm
TheCatt wrote:If success isn't avoiding failure, then what is it?
Not failure != success in the same way not negative != positive.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 1:14 pm
by TPRJones
If success isn't avoiding failure, then what is it?
That's some low standards right there.
How about measuring average income or level of happiness or other such things? The assumption that "college grad = success" is just silly. By that definition all these poeple end up in the fail column. Not to mention most welders, plumbers, and auto mechanics.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 1:31 pm
by Leisher
The attitude towards college in this country is horseshit. We've made ourselves slaves to these institutions of "higher learning".
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 1:40 pm
by Malcolm
We've made ourselves slaves to these institutions of "higher learning".
That the biz world continues to support.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 1:43 pm
by GORDON
Malcolm wrote:We've made ourselves slaves to these institutions of "higher learning".
That the biz world continues to support.
To make themselves feel better.
A significant portion of billionaires lately never finished college, did they?
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 2:02 pm
by TheCatt
Yay anecdotes!
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 2:05 pm
by Leisher
I remember years ago Fortune 500 polled the CEOs of those corporations, and in a landslide the CEOs cherished military service over college.
Why?
Actual experience over theory.
HR people are the reason college is so coveted in corporations. They're part of the problem.
I remember hiring my IT Support Specialist and working with our HR person. She was adamant that a college degree was the main criteria for candidates. I had to sit her down and explain to her about how certifications make the IT world turn (for the most part).
I was reminded of that story again recently during a company function when the president was talking about the key folks who got our company to where it is today, and almost to a man, none had been to college until later in their careers.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 2:05 pm
by GORDON
And the plural of anecdote is data?
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 2:08 pm
by Malcolm
I had to sit her down and explain to her about how certifications make the IT world turn (for the most part).
I'm certified in jackshit. My degrees are considered perma-certs for the most part. The degrees, in turn, are not a measure of knowledge or creativity, but how much debt I'm not afraid to rack up and how much bullshit I can put up with while paying.
Oldest nephew is going to college next semester. I told my brother not to send him my way for advice.
Edited By Malcolm on 1399918275
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 2:13 pm
by GORDON
Don't get me wrong, I think that certain jobs DO require a shitload of training, and a degree is the way you show you received that training.
My bias comes from the fact that I agree with Leisher 100% that HR people are a big part of the problem, and the fact that I have had 2 managers in the IT industry whose degrees were in mining technology, and the other in animal husbandry. Somehow this made them qualified for management positions where my years of experience did not. And no, I am not bitter, I don't even give a shit at all, but I have seen and learned enough to know that for most people a college degree isn't indicative of shit.
And dont even get me started on those with liberal arts degrees.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 2:26 pm
by Malcolm
I think that certain jobs DO require a shitload of training, and a degree is the way you show you received that training.
Some jobs do, and degrees are a way.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 2:29 pm
by GORDON
Malcolm wrote:I think that certain jobs DO require a shitload of training, and a degree is the way you show you received that training.
Some jobs do, and degrees are
a way.
Absolutely.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 2:38 pm
by Malcolm
GORDON wrote:Malcolm wrote:I think that certain jobs DO require a shitload of training, and a degree is the way you show you received that training.
Some jobs do, and degrees are
a way.
Absolutely.
I'd argue that most jobs don't, and degrees are far from the best way.
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 2:42 pm
by GORDON
Malcolm wrote:GORDON wrote:Malcolm wrote:
Some jobs do, and degrees are a way.
Absolutely.
I'd argue that most jobs don't, and degrees are far from the best way.
Mostly agree.
I want my doctors to have attended a shitload of school, though, as they say, "You know what they call the guy who graduated last in his class in medical school?"
Engineers should have a lot of schooling. Biologists. Chemists. Basically, any job that you can't do with just a liberal arts degree. But even those jobs... I don't really know why a botanist needs to have 24 credit hours in the humanities in order to be a botanist.