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You'd have to strike the essay, too. "Culture" can often be gleaned even on neutral subjects.

Based on past discussions, I know some of us hear believe in white privilege to a certain degree. I KNOW I have benefited because I know my parents, grandparents, great GPs, etc, etc benefited from it. The further back you go, the greater the benefits received, and depending on what your predecessors did with this benefit (a lot of people wasted it by being lazy leaches on society) would determine how much was passed on. Things are not nearly as bad as it used to be, but I would argue that it's still not an even playing field across the board.

All that being said, AA was a way to make up for that. It gave some students the ability to jump ahead in an attempt to make up for the past. I like the fact that we are giving the "best of the best" or at least the most motivated people a chance to rise above and provide more for them and theirs.

While it is impossible to determine who is owed what, and who owes it. It's not hard to agree that there are long standing inequities because of race. White people are still way ahead. I always felt like AA was a pretty fair way of tipping the scales in a way that was actually positive and measurably beneficial for both sides. Many people are just like "Pay me for what you did to my ancestors", and I don't agree with that. These people are saying "I've worked really hard and put forth a lot of effort. Invest in me for a better future for many.".

The handful of white people who don't get accepted will still get into really good colleges and do really well. Instead of pushing back at AA, maybe they should go after all the rich people that bought spots for their kids at the school, thus putting less qualified students in spots more deserved by others. But we all know it will be easier to go after AA than to go after the rich!

Leisher wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:09 pm Change the application process so no identifying information is given about the candidates. No name, no sex, no address, no identifying info at all. Just grades, GPA, classes, and extra culliculars/community work.

Selective college do interviews.

Also, curriculars.

I pretty much agree with Cake.

And seriously, legacy/bought admissions are complete bullshit.

I submit that stories of immigrants coming to this country and busting their asses, making sure the second generation graduates college, is so common that it's practically cliché. Even if not all immigrants are that success story, the fact that it happens at all is hard to pass off to "luck."

If they can do it in two generations, I submit that "white privilege" is just an excuse if you've been here all along, and not succeeded in the 5 decades since the Civil Rights Act.

I think the immigrant stories thing is an apples/oranges thing. HUGELY different history/backgrounds/many many many other variables not mentioned in your example.

Given that discrimination pretty much went away over night after the Civil Rights Act and POC were 100% accepted into society as a whole, I guess I have to agree with you. *sarcasm*

Just like immigrants often face discrimination, yet thrive anyway.

GORDON wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:35 pm Just like immigrants often face discrimination, yet thrive anyway.

Shades of grey.

Ok?

It's literally illegal to not school your children. They will jail parents of truants. Government gives out guaranteed free money to go to college (even if it fucks you later). I say if you remove cultures of failure, it's pretty hard to not get an education in the USA, I don't care how many of your descendants were enslaved 170 years ago, or lynched 60 years ago.

The problem isn't whitey.

Just like immigrants often face discrimination, yet thrive anyway.

Again, missing variables. Immigrants of color? Irish, Jewish, Indian? 1920, 2020? Wealthy immigrant/poor? Came with skills/no skills?

Not all educations are equal. Do you think your kid is getting the same education as a kid in the inner city?

No. They're getting a good enough one to go to BGSU.

Someone earlier said "doesn't matter if white kids can't get into Harvard, they can get in elsewhere." I submit it's the same for black kids. Somewhere will take them, and most colleges have remedial math and english to get kids caught up. If they want it, the opportunity is there. Whitey isn't the problem.

Cakedaddy wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:38 pm Based on past discussions, I know some of us hear believe in white privilege to a certain degree. I KNOW I have benefited because I know my parents, grandparents, great GPs, etc, etc benefited from it. The further back you go, the greater the benefits received, and depending on what your predecessors did with this benefit (a lot of people wasted it by being lazy leaches on society) would determine how much was passed on. Things are not nearly as bad as it used to be, but I would argue that it's still not an even playing field across the board.

All that being said, AA was a way to make up for that. It gave some students the ability to jump ahead in an attempt to make up for the past. I like the fact that we are giving the "best of the best" or at least the most motivated people a chance to rise above and provide more for them and theirs.

While it is impossible to determine who is owed what, and who owes it. It's not hard to agree that there are long standing inequities because of race. White people are still way ahead. I always felt like AA was a pretty fair way of tipping the scales in a way that was actually positive and measurably beneficial for both sides. Many people are just like "Pay me for what you did to my ancestors", and I don't agree with that. These people are saying "I've worked really hard and put forth a lot of effort. Invest in me for a better future for many.".

The handful of white people who don't get accepted will still get into really good colleges and do really well. Instead of pushing back at AA, maybe they should go after all the rich people that bought spots for their kids at the school, thus putting less qualified students in spots more deserved by others. But we all know it will be easier to go after AA than to go after the rich!

I agree with some of this and completely disagree with some. Too fucking tired to detail it all though. Long day.

I will say that ANY policy that gives you more or less value based on your skin color is inherently wrong. Sorry, but it is. You can talk all day until you're blue in the face, but there is no way to justify racism.

Also, black women are now the most educated demographic in the country. Why do we still need AA? What metric is being monitored to ensure equality has been achieved and AA is not punishing people for their skin color?

TheCatt wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:56 pm And seriously, legacy/bought admissions are complete bullshit.

Agree.

GORDON wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:26 pm Someone earlier said "doesn't matter if white kids can't get into Harvard, they can get in elsewhere." I submit it's the same for black kids. Somewhere will take them, and most colleges have remedial math and english to get kids caught up. If they want it, the opportunity is there. Whitey isn't the problem.

Yep. The government guarantees loans. If you want to get into school, you're getting into a school.

Rehnquist once said something to the effect of, "The only way to stop racial discrimination in this country is to stop racial discrimination in this country." This argument was against AA, IIRC.

My college "Angry White People" course taught me that.

Leisher wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:52 pm black women are now the most educated demographic in the country.

this is not true, you are misconstruing an enrollment stats from 7 years ago comparing them to black men.

https://edtrust.org/resource/national-a ... n-and-men/

TheCatt wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:24 pm

Leisher wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:52 pm black women are now the most educated demographic in the country.

this is not true, you are misconstruing an enrollment stats from 7 years ago comparing them to black men.

https://edtrust.org/resource/national-a ... n-and-men/

Hey look, I can go to "iamright.com" and pull up stuff too.

Leisher wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:22 pm

TheCatt wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:24 pm

Leisher wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:52 pm black women are now the most educated demographic in the country.

this is not true, you are misconstruing an enrollment stats from 7 years ago comparing them to black men.

https://edtrust.org/resource/national-a ... n-and-men/

Hey look, I can go to "iamright.com" and pull up stuff too.

That stat I was referring to is the exact one in your link. The fact that black people live much shorter lives than white people in the US also contributes to the distorted stat you are using. And you are still wrong.

TheCatt wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:35 pm

Leisher wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:22 pm

TheCatt wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:24 pm this is not true, you are misconstruing an enrollment stats from 7 years ago comparing them to black men.

https://edtrust.org/resource/national-a ... n-and-men/

Hey look, I can go to "iamright.com" and pull up stuff too.

That stat I was referring to is the exact one in your link. The fact that black people live much shorter lives than white people in the US also contributes to the distorted stat you are using. And you are still wrong.

You should read the article that says I'm right (It's literally titled what I said). Oh, and none of this has anything to do with anything. It doesn't matter if the statement is right or wrong. Because even if it was wrong, the numbers prove a different argument than the one you're implying. The gaps have significantly closed, and most importantly, there is no massive conspiracy to hold certain people back. The issue isn't whitey barring admission. (In fact, white people running colleges are the most likely to spray cum all over themselves admitting minority students over white ones.) The issues are elsewhere. That's where things need to be fixed. As I said here or in another thread, it's a fucking travesty that ANY public schools are underfunded. Teachers using their own money for supplies or PTA/PTOs constantly having to raise money is complete bullshit. And that shit happens in every part of the country no matter what the highest demographic is and/or the demographic in charge. And why are black males not pursuing degrees? More than likely, that's a cultural issue, something prominent black leaders have spoken about. Hell, Dave Chappelle had more than one skit about it on his show.

AA for college admissions is like a lifelong smoker taking Halls to relieve his smokers cough.

BTW, the fact still remains that a policy that specifically and intentionally hurts a group of people based on their skin color is racist.

Instead of trying to nitpick, try addressing every part of an argument. Like this question:

Leisher wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:52 pm What metric is being monitored to ensure equality has been achieved and AA is not punishing people for their skin color?

A plan has to have goals for success, yes? Anyone in the business world knows this, so what are the stated goals, and more importantly, the metrics being constantly examined to end AA?

Alright, that's enough pointless debating for me tonight. Ultimately, we're 100% on the same side. We don't want people to be discriminated against and we want everyone to have the same opportunities. We just disagree on how to go about it, which if you think about it, is a good thing. I'm turning off my brain for the night and going to play Subnautica Below Zero.

Frontrunner(?) for Breyer's seat has GOP support.

Seems like she'd be a slam dunk nomination.

Leisher wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 2:27 pm Frontrunner(?) for Breyer's seat has GOP support.

Seems like she'd be a slam dunk nomination.

Progressives will hate her for corporate law