HBO still stuck in 20th century

[TPRJones]

That's a snarky and defensive response. ... Granted, you probably thought I was judging you, but I'm not.

Well, when literally the very first thing you do is flat out accuse me of lying to you and being a cheap asshole, it's hard to have a reasonable discussion about motivations.

[TPRJones]

All this typing and all I'm reading is "I don't want to pay for it".

TPR: I don't want to buy cable and HBO. So I steal it.

Then clearly reading is not a skill you poses.

You can dress it up all you want. But bottom line, you are too cheap to pay for the content, so you are stealing it (or complaining about it).

You can dress it up all you want, but bottom line is you are too much of a judgmental prick to actually read what people are posting.



Edited By TPRJones on 1397666742

[Cakedaddy]

Doing what you are doing with GoT could be compared to buying a car. You want to drive the 2015 Ford F150 now. You like it. It's a good truck. But, you don't want to pay full price for it. You want to pay what you would pay in 2017 after the 2015 has sat on the lot for two years. So, you take the truck now, and drive it. Enjoy all of it's features and conveniences. Then, two years from now, you return to the dealership and pay them the marked down price of a 2015 vehicle that has sat on the lot for two years. Then you have them throw in some extra features like fog lights and free maintenance on top of it.

Getting to watch and enjoy GoT right now, and participate in all the water cooler discussions comes at a premium price of paying for HBO right now. Then later, you pay a little more for the extra features and convenience of watching it when ever you want on your 60" TV. But, you are stealing the premium service of watching it right now and participating in the conversations. You are stealing. You water it down by eventually giving HBO some money. But you aren't paying full price for what you are using. You are enjoying your NEW show, but then later, paying the USED show prices and calling it even. I really wish I could do that at the car dealership. I'd save a ton of money.

Malcolm. I never said you people steal everything. I'm just saying that the stuff you have that you didn't pay for, is stolen because you were too cheap to pay for it.

[Vince]

But bottom line, you are too cheap to pay for the content, so you are stealing it (or complaining about it).

I just put up a list of half a dozen things I bought over the past few months. Not everything's a nail, hammer.

To be fair, most of the stuff you listed that you'd paid for can't be pirated. But to put you to the test... that new desktop system that you dropped the cash on... did you buy a licensed copy of the OS for that guy?

[TPRJones]

Stealing a file is not like stealing a car. The core component of theft is not that you now have something you didn't have before, it's that you've taken away someone else's access to the thing they owned. That is not an element of copying. Copying is not theft.

That's not to say it's morally correct or doesn't cause harm. It does cause harm and it's not a right thing to do. But it's a hell of a lot different from the crime of theft and to define it as such is disingenuous.

If we could copy a car as easily as we copy files, we'd all be driving Porches.

Getting to watch and enjoy GoT right now, and participate in all the water cooler discussions comes at a premium price of paying for HBO right now.

No, it involves more than that. It involves the premium price of a cable service I also don't want anything else on. It's like being forced to buy everything on the menu at the restaurant just because you want an order of fries. That's a stupid way to run a restaurant.



Edited By TPRJones on 1397667034

[TheCatt]

So, I pay for cable, but I don't really watch it. The kids do sometimes.

But I download shows that are on cable TV (Breaking Bad, Naked and Afraid, etc).

Is that stealing/being cheap?



Edited By TheCatt on 1397667005

[Cakedaddy]

All this typing and all I'm reading is "I don't want to pay for it".

TPR: I don't want to buy cable and HBO. So I steal it.

Then clearly reading is not a skill you poses.

You can dress it up all you want. But bottom line, you are too cheap to pay for the content, so you are stealing it (or complaining about it).

You can dress it up all you want, but bottom line is you are too much of a judgmental prick to actually read what people are posting.

Please highlight the parts of your post that show that you aren't stealing it because you don't want to pay for it.

I'd be willing to pay something closer to $10 to $20. But that doesn't seem to be an option.

delivered in the way WE want it when and where we want it

it is MUCH more convenient to steal it.

You talk about some grand scheme of paying for it, but, you just can't. People want to sell their products how THEY want, at the price THEY set. And that's just not cool with you. So you steal it. I mean, what part of that isn't an accurate summary of what you said?

[Cakedaddy]

Stealing a file is not like stealing a car. The core component of theft is not that you now have something you didn't have before, it's that you've taken away someone else's access to the thing they owned. That is not an element of copying. Copying is not theft.

That's not to say it's morally correct or doesn't cause harm. It does cause harm and it's not a right thing to do. But it's a hell of a lot different from the crime of theft and to define it as such is disingenuous.

If we could copy a car as easily as we copy files, we'd all be driving Porches.

Getting to watch and enjoy GoT right now, and participate in all the water cooler discussions comes at a premium price of paying for HBO right now.

No, it involves more than that. It involves the premium price of a cable service I also don't want anything else on. It's like being forced to buy everything on the menu at the restaurant just because you want an order of fries. That's a stupid way to run a restaurant.

So you just steal the fries because the restaurant is selling something in a way that you don't want to buy it. Ever go to a steak house and buy ONLY a steak? You can't. You're going to pay for a vegetable and potato as well as for the labor to cook it. You are getting the product grouped with what THEY want it grouped with and served the way THEY want it served at the price THEY want to sell it.

And no, that's not an exact comparison. It's an analogy. Much like you bringing fries into the conversation. Fries that can't be copied.


Here's another thought.
"Since it's free over here, I'm only willing to pay $X. But since I can't, I steal it."

[TPRJones]

You are oversimplifying and you know it. Considering that I delete it after I watch it, it would be equally valid - and just as reductionist - to say that I merely borrow it and there is no wrong being done at all.

Of course what I'm doing is wrong, but it is not theft.

But more on point, I'm not doing it because I'm too cheap. There are plenty of other reasons to do it, and I've explained in detail exactly why I do it. But you don't give a shit, you think you know it all already.



Edited By TPRJones on 1397667935

[Cakedaddy]

So, I pay for cable, but I don't really watch it. The kids do sometimes.

But I download shows that are on cable TV (Breaking Bad, Naked and Afraid, etc).

Is that stealing/being cheap?

It's stealing, but not being cheap. Assuming it's not being aired anywhere, not on DVD yet, etc. But, I guess it's always available on demand on itunes (or most shows seem to be). So, since there is a way to view it without pirating, it's stealing, and I guess you are too cheap to buy it from itunes. But then, had you DVRed it, you could have watched it whenever, so, no harm done?

This is somewhat gray, I guess.



Which all leads to another question. I DVR the program, then burn that to a DVD. Did I just pirate it? I could have left it on the DVR forever. Bought more hard drives to expand my DVR capabilities. Instead, I put it on another storage media. Hmmm. Are DVRs pirating?

[Cakedaddy]

You are oversimplifying and you know it. Considering that I delete it after I watch it, it would be equally valid - and just as reductionist - to say that I merely borrow it and there is no wrong being done at all.

Of course what I'm doing is wrong, but it is not theft.

But more on point, I'm not doing it because I'm too cheap. There are plenty of other reasons to do it, and I've explained in detail exactly why I do it. But you don't give a shit, you think you know it all already.

I have reread your posts and I honestly don't see how I'm not summarizing what you posted. HBO doesn't give it to you the way you want, when you want, and at the price you want, so you steal it. What points did I miss?

And no, you aren't stealing anything physical. You aren't stealing the DVD off the shelf. You are stealing the audio/visual etc that they created. That's in your mind now, and you didn't pay for it. How did you not just steal that from them?

[Malcolm]

I'm just saying that the stuff you have that you didn't pay for, is stolen because you were too cheap to pay for it.

And I repeatedly have pointed out that price isn't an issue for me if I think I'm getting a decent deal on something of value. That does describes neither Comcast's nor HBO's means providing of content in this day and age. They go out of their way to make sure I watch shit how they want. They can bite me.

Scenario 1: I get to watch content however I want, on demand, available for download with a Popcorn Time-like UI. Know what happens when I get to watch shows? I buy shit like t-shirts and other bits of merchandise.

Scenario 2: Content providers decide to be a dick because they know I want to watch a particular show. They control access to new episodes like draconian overlords. I might go to the trouble of grabbing it from the world o' torrents, or I might move on to something Netflix already has in stock.

HBO is clearly voting for scenario 2 because they don't want my money. If they did, they'd let me watch what I want when I want on what I want, period. That shit is included in my cable bill and they aren't delivering on what their website says is their goal.

did you buy a licensed copy of the OS for that guy?

... the MSDN alliance means I don't have to, but my copy is legit, it's got a real reg key and all that bureaucratic shit.



Edited By Malcolm on 1397671979

[Vince]

Which all leads to another question. I DVR the program, then burn that to a DVD. Did I just pirate it? I could have left it on the DVR forever. Bought more hard drives to expand my DVR capabilities. Instead, I put it on another storage media. Hmmm. Are DVRs pirating?

I know with cassettes and music the SCOTUS said as long as it's for your personal use, it's not. As long as you've paid for the original source.

[TPRJones]

Which all leads to another question. I DVR the program, then burn that to a DVD. Did I just pirate it? I could have left it on the DVR forever. Bought more hard drives to expand my DVR capabilities. Instead, I put it on another storage media. Hmmm. Are DVRs pirating?

I know with cassettes and music the SCOTUS said as long as it's for your personal use, it's not. As long as you've paid for the original source.

Under copyright law you have a fundamental and unabridgeable right to convert the copyrighted material you have purchased from one form to another. Such as from an 8-track to a cassette. Or from a DVR to a DVD. As long as you don't broadcast it or distribute it for money.

Although under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act it is now illegal for you to exercise that fundamental and unabridgeable right without written consent from the copyright holders.

[TPRJones]

HBO doesn't give it to you the way you want, when you want, and at the price you want, so you steal it. What points did I miss?

I honestly don't know how Malcom or I can explain it any more clearly.

Note that at no point do I claim that what I'm doing is right or legal. Although I won't go so far as to agree to call it theft (that is a fundamentally wrong word for it as it is a much lesser crime in essence) I will agree that it is wrong. But I assure you that it is 100% NOT because I am unwilling to pay for HBO. I will be completely happy to set up a subscription to HBO right now if you can tell me how to do so without subscribing to an entire cable package. Because I would be happy to pay for HBO to support their making of Game of Thrones, so it's not about money. But even if I did get that opportunity to pay for it I still wouldn't use it the way it was intended. I'd be paying for it to provide that monetary support the show deserves and then acquiring the content in the much more convenient way that I am set up to receive it.

But now insert the part where you quote this post and say that clearly it's about the money and I'm cheap. Go ahead, you know you want to. Even though you are wrong.



Edited By TPRJones on 1397670520

[Vince]

Although under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act it is now illegal for you to exercise that fundamental and unabridgeable right without written consent from the copyright holders.

Under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, as long as I'm not distributing it to others (for free or for profit), the copyright holder can suck it.

[TPRJones]

You are stealing the audio/visual etc that they created. That's in your mind now, and you didn't pay for it. How did you not just steal that from them?

I will say it again. The fundamental evil of the crime of theft is not that you now have something you should not have access to, it is that you have deprived someone of something they used to own. When your house is robbed, you are not angry that some other person now has a TV just like yours you are angry that they have removed your TV from your possession. Copying is a fundamentally different - and lesser - crime and should not be classified as stealing. We need a new word to fit this new thing that didn't exist 40 years ago.

If you really can't see the difference between someone copying your file and someone stealing your car then I don't think we can have a rational discussion.

EDIT: I just realized I never spelled it out when I explained about how much I pay for stuff I never access at Amazon, but to make it clear I have paid for every season of the Game of Thrones released on Amazon in digital format. I'm not willing to put up with their DRM shit so I have never and probably will never access those files. But I have paid for them in order to support the makers of the show. I'd much rather just pay for HBO but as previously discussed that is not an option without getting cable which I refuse to do. None of this will matter I'm sure, but I felt it should be mentioned.



Edited By TPRJones on 1397671893

[GORDON]

The RIAA and MPAA have spent a lot of money on marketing calling it "theft" and convincing judges that one song copied = $500,000 in losses which makes it a jailable felony, but in reality it is just copyright violation, a misdemeanor. I think Troy is a lawyer, he can tell me if I am wrong.

Now, there is an aspect to this discussion that we have left unsaid because it is a given, but is really the crux of the argument. Cake is suggesting that a million people are clamoring for a way to legitimately stream the episodes in a timely manner but are just too cheap to pay HBO the way HBO wants to charge for it. The problem is, HBO is requiring you to pay for a whole lot of other things HBO doesn't own in order for you to watch the show, even though you have your own method to watch it.

I have mentioned HBO costs $15 a month, or something like that. I never mentioned you can't get HBO without getting basic cable which, I don't know, call it another $45 a month. HBO Go is their internet service. Now, lots and lots of people have internet service without having basic cable. There is no reason at all why they shouldn't be allowed to pay for and use HBO Go without paying for the entire basic cable package with ESPN and Oprah Winfrey Channel and Lifetime. It is like having a restaurant that will only allow you to come and pay for food if you buy a Ford SUV that will only take you to that restaurant, even though you already have a motorcycle. In this case, the restaurant is owned by Ford, just as HBO is owned by Time Warner, a major cable TV company. HBO requires you to blow their parent company (in places where TW has the cable tv monopoly, of course) in order to purchase their product.

There is way more to this conversation than "we are all just cheap and dont want to pay for it." In a world where our lawmakers were not bought and paid for, what HBO and TW are doing is arguably against the law.

I am not trying to say we are fighting on moral grounds, but there is no way in hell it should be allowed that in order to purchase product X you should also be forced to purchase unrelated service Y that you just do not need. Since there is a free and completely safe alternative out there, then HBO will just continued to get screwed out of millions of dollars of revenue that could, as it was stated earlier, go into making more great seasons of everyones favorite show. But nope. That is where a lot of people righteous indignation comes from... "Why won't HBO let me pay them for this product?" As it has been stated from the beginning, HBO is stuck on 90's marketing and think it will work forever.

So I watch the show in my way, and I pay for the blurays, and I sleep well at night.



Edited By GORDON on 1397672910

[Cakedaddy]

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree with it. They are providing entertainment. You are getting that entertainment without paying for it. You are stealing that entertainment. Just because it's not tangible doesn't mean it's not theft. You can call it something different (a word to describe acquiring ideas without paying for them), but the principle is still the same.

And to say "I'm willing to pay for it, but not their asking price" is stupid. HBO sets the price and the terms. It's their product. You are arguing that you aren't too cheap to pay for it, because you'd give them a dollar for something they have priced at $5. In order for you to have HBO, you have to have cable. Those are their terms. That's the price. You may not think it's worth that price. That's fine. But that's what they have it priced at. You don't think it's worth all that. You don't want to have to buy cable to get HBO. So what? Those are their terms. If you don't like it, don't buy it! But to then steal it and say "I would pay less for the content so I'm not stealing it" is, well, not valid?

[GORDON]

It's a good thing Time Warner doesn't buy the Visio TV company. I would hate to have to buy a new TV just to watch the show.