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GORDON wrote:

TPRJones wrote:Not just because I think most people don't care, but also because a large percentage of trans people pass unnoticed so no one will even know there was a trans person in their bathroom in the first place.

So the number of trans people compared to the population is an incredibly small percentage, and "the majority" of them are passable and no one would notice them using the wrong bathroom anyway, so what we should do is pass blanket laws to allow pervs... probably a much larger number than actual trans people... into the wrong bathrooms, legally.

Makes sense.

Except what will actually happen is that anyone who suspects a crime will speak up, at which point the decision is easy based on context. A transperson trying to do his business (heh) is going to behave a lot differently from a sex offender -- full cart sitting outside the grocery store restroom, moving quickly and with purpose, etc..

Currently, a man in a women's room, just standing alone, is suspicious. A man in a women's room standing there while calling instructions to a little girl inside a stall is obviously taking care of the girl. Most women are already fine with him. Transpeople aren't any different from that.

Alhazad wrote: Currently, a man in a women's room, just standing alone, is suspicious. A man in a women's room standing there while calling instructions to a little girl inside a stall is obviously taking care of the girl. Most women are already fine with him. Transpeople aren't any different from that.

I think it happens the other way around, at least with me and every other parent I've ever known. The Mom takes the little boy into the ladies' room, and vice versa.

I'm not even worried about the trans thingies. I'm worried about the multitude of pervs that are already taking advantage of the laws in order to ogle women in the bathrooms. It only gets worse from here. Why do that to accommodate such a small minority? How in the hell can this group of idiots (social justice warrior leftists) preach on and on about the "rape culture" in colleges while at the same time saying to the female college student, "shut up about having a man in your bathroom, bitch"?

They're all mentally ill. THIS is your "war on women".

Vince wrote:They're all mentally ill. THIS is your "war on women".

Sorry but it is my understanding that only republicans hate women.

Today in the park I was self identifying as capuchin monkey so I climbed in a tree and pissed on people as they walked below me.

Freedom!

Opponents claim the rule opens up bathrooms to voyeurs but supporters say that's an unrealistic fear.

This part really bugs me. What evidence do they have to support that statement?

I used to argue that gays in the military would be a logistics issue. I believe they should have the same right to defend their country as any straight person, but how do you house them? Men and women in the military have separate housing. The reasoning behind that is obvious. However, gay men living with straight men and gay women living with straight women is just fine. What?

"They're not going to rape you or turn you gay!" True, but that's not the issue. First of all, are you implying that straight men would rape straight women if given the chance? Are you also implying that a gay person could NEVER rape someone? Secondly, the women and men probably don't want to be oogled by someone who is attracted to them. In situations where they have to get naked and/or do their personal business, that would probably make them feel violated. So why is it only a violation when it's straight people gawking at straight people? Just because someone's gay doesn't mean you're homophobic for feeling violated if they're watching you undress.

If straight men and women can't bunk together for sex based reasons, they why does the same not apply to gay people? How does someone utter "treat gays as equals" in one breath, and then try to argue that gay people don't have normal human behavior in the next?

Back to the trans argument, to say that pervs won't take advantage of this law is insanity. It's completely ignoring human nature. There are men (and women) who will completely change their lifestyle to make it seem like they're trans just for the opportunity to go into women's rooms for a sexual thrill.

Why is it ok to ignore typical human behavior in the quest for "equal rights for all"? Why is it ok to strip others of their rights in the quest for "equal rights for all"?

I'm not at all against doing something to make trans people more comfortable in bathrooms, but it shouldn't be at the expense of other people. We have family bathrooms now, why can't there be a trans bathroom?

First of all, are you implying that straight men would rape straight women if given the chance?

Based on some news stories coming out of the military, yes.

But on topic, I do not defend the idea that anyone that declares they are trans should immediately be allowed access to the other bathroom. I agree that that is problematic for a wide variety of reasons, the most blatant being that it can be abused for other reasons. However I am strongly in favor of laws that declare that any trans person that has transitioned enough that they are able to pass as the other gender without being noticed should be allowed to use their chosen facilities regardless of what is in their pants. I would also support similar treatment of any trans person that has sought treatment with a physician and has been prescribed and started hormone treatment to transition. With those stipulations all those abuse problems go away.

I think I agree with TPR, but there will still be howls of protest.

"YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT MAKES MY GENDER"

And what proof are we going to have for those things, TPR? Doctor cards?

Based on some news stories coming out of the military, yes.

Men have and will rape women, yes. That's not a military only thing. And I know you're not saying all men will rape a woman given the chance. Also, rape happens all the time in prison where the sexes are completely segregated. So one cannot argue that a gay man would never rape a straight man.

But on topic, I do not defend the idea that anyone that declares they are trans should immediately be allowed access to the other bathroom. I agree that that is problematic for a wide variety of reasons, the most blatant being that it can be abused for other reasons. However I am strongly in favor of laws that declare that any trans person that has transitioned enough that they are able to pass as the other gender without being noticed should be allowed to use their chosen facilities regardless of what is in their pants. I would also support similar treatment of any trans person that has sought treatment with a physician and has been prescribed and started hormone treatment to transition. With those stipulations all those abuse problems go away.

I'd be in favor of this rather than the honor system.

TPRJones wrote:

First of all, are you implying that straight men would rape straight women if given the chance?

Based on some news stories coming out of the military, yes.

Believe it or not, this one of the few opinions that I find personally offensive, as it is insulting to every active and former military member. Some people are broken, period, and being in uniform doesn't make anyone more or less likely to be a rapist.

The other day a family member of mine.... I have looked up to this person secretly, I admire this person's zest for life. But then on Facebook she posted about a local woman in her area who answered an online personal, and the guy ended up being a psycho and murdered her and dismembered her. So my family member starts going off on how deathly afraid she is whenever she leaves the house, and how unfair it is that she can't go certain places at night or places where homeless people congregate during the day because they all have penises and they will forcefully enter her vagina. She says that her live-in boyfriend thinks she overreacts, and she finds his opinion "condescending and insulting," and victim-blaming. She then goes on to implore all the parents on her facebook feed to talk to their young sons and teach them that it is wrong to rape, because that's apparently the problem... little boys just aren't taught to not rape.

And that right there is the most "condescending an insulting" thing in the entire conversation.

Her entire fearful attitude came out of nowhere and was really a shock to learn she felt that way about the world.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to poke a nerve. I admit that was rather flippant, but it was posted so in response to an equally flippant rhetorical. And it's not an opinion I personally hold.

As to her calling that "victim blaming" is she claiming that she has been a victim of rape? If so perhaps her fear has not come out of nowhere. If not then perhaps she shouldn't refer to herself as a victim during discussions of rape issues, faking rape victim status is not helpful to anyone.

TheCatt wrote:I think I agree with TPR, but there will still be howls of protest.

"YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT MAKES MY GENDER"

And what proof are we going to have for those things, TPR? Doctor cards?

State ID card or driver's license seems fine. Driver class: LADYMAN.

GORDON wrote:So my family member starts going off on how deathly afraid she is whenever she leaves the house, and how unfair it is that she can't go certain places at night or places where homeless people congregate during the day because they all have penises and they will forcefully enter her vagina.

Really... the rape is the scary bit, not the part where a murderer ended her life by mechanically separating her?

Buy her a fucking gun.

TPRJones wrote: As to her calling that "victim blaming" is she claiming that she has been a victim of rape?

To my knowledge, she has not been. The "victim blaming" came into the conversation because, apparently, in regards to the murdered woman, some people had commented, "Well maybe if you are a small, unarmed woman shouldn't trust people you just met on the internet." I am just guessing, from the context.

And I didn't think you really thought that about the military, but I've heard that exact opinion from different liberal members of my family. Right in front of me they recommended to my niece that she not join the air force the way she wanted to, because military men will rape her. Right in front of me. I don't think they had a clue what cocksuckers they were being, because I don't think they have any self awareness.

TheCatt wrote:I think I agree with TPR, but there will still be howls of protest.
"YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT MAKES MY GENDER"

I'm sure, and I also know just how much I will care.

TheCatt wrote:And what proof are we going to have for those things, TPR? Doctor cards?

Nah, this would be more an after-the-fact thing, I would think. If someone makes a complaint about person X being in the wrong bathroom, then all they need to do is prove their actual transitioning and charges are dropped, with perhaps a word of warning to the complainant.

And of course if someone trans can pass without being noticed then there's really not going to be any complaints to begin with.

GORDON wrote:I don't think they had a clue what cocksuckers they were being, because I don't think they have any self awareness.

Well, duh. If they had any sort of capacity for self-awareness and logic they probably wouldn't be liberals.

some people had commented, "Well maybe if you are a small, unarmed woman shouldn't trust people you just met on the internet."

Shit, I don't trust most people I've met in person.

TPR's got the best approach I've heard so far. I'm with it.

TPRJones wrote:I'm sorry, I didn't mean to poke a nerve. I admit that was rather flippant, but it was posted so in response to an equally flippant rhetorical. And it's not an opinion I personally hold.

What was the original "flippant rhetorical"? I assume you mean my statement:

First of all, are you implying that straight men would rape straight women if given the chance?

If so, you must have your head buried in the sand because that exact argument has been made publicly in multiple places. Hell, go to the "Planning on sending your son to college?" thread and do some reading. That's exactly why I asked it. And even if you want to argue people don't have that attitude, then explain why people who say "men can't room with women, that won't work" are the same people who say "gay men can room with straight men". There's either an implication of rape, or an implication about women being too weak to protect themselves, or an implication that only straight men commit rape. Take your pick.

My statement was meant to question the logic people are using to tell us what's right and wrong. It was based on legit arguments people are making about the behaviors of men in general.

Your statement was apparently intentionally insulting?