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Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:25 pm
by Malcolm
GORDON wrote:Malcolm wrote:So, the computer does what a parent should do?
Goddamnit, I'm talking about your average adult human being.
Goddamit, this entire thread has been about children being given laptops and whether or not it is worthwhile.
Fine, we'll go with the children theme. I guess all those parental locks on your cable TV box is just Comcast trying to make you a lazier, less effective parent?
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:25 pm
by GORDON
Yes. Exactly right. You've cracked it.
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:28 pm
by Malcolm
Machines exist because I don't want to do more work than I have to. If they can handle some parenting, all the better. Timelocks on the cookie jars or some shit.
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:07 pm
by TheCatt
GORDON wrote:And I will disagree. The old dudes who invented computer and programming languages in the 1960's had 2 things in common: they weren't raised on it, and they had no problem using it as adults. Smart people will be smart no matter what, and stupid people will be stupid.
That works great for the 1% of the 1% of the 1%.
This isn't about a substitute, this is about addition.
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:08 pm
by TheCatt
At this point, I've given up on people over 40. They. Just. Don't. Get. It. :p
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:36 pm
by TPRJones
I'm with Malcolm.
Where I work I am a god. The Provost of the campus has apparently said many times that he only fears two things: getting a flat tire on top of the Beltway 8 bridge and that I might decide to quit. I mostly surf the web all day and read these forums. But I also know how the magic desk boxes work and know a few simple tricks that lets me get meaningful data out of them in a format that old people (over the age of 40) can understand.
My entire career exists only because Malcolm is right on this one. I started programming in Fortran on punch cards at the age of 5. I grew up with tech and I know it like few people my age or older do. At best some of the other old people may have a few things they've learned to stumble their way through, but very rare is the old person that actually really understands it.
Even given all that I know nothing next to the average tech-experienced teenager when it comes to smartphones and tablets and other things more modern than a PC. Growing up with it makes a huge difference in how well you understand it.
Edited By TPRJones on 1407184736
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:56 pm
by Vince
I think this is getting pulled into two different arguments. Are computers a great teaching aid and are older people less proficient with new tech.
We recently got a new (to us) on call phone. It's a Blackberry. I'm going to hand it to one of our younger guys to get the email set up on it. Not because I can't. I set up the company email on my last smart phone in about 2 minutes max. But I find I have lost the desire to learn new tech simply because I like learning new tech. I used to want to do crap like that just because. Hell, I set up a native Linux email server about 10 years ago just to do it. I did it and it sucked, but I got off on doing something like that with the tech.
Now I'd rather let the young guy that still gets off on learning something he'll probably never use again get off on setting up the department email on the phone. While he's doing that I'll read up on good ways to set 330 conibears underwater for beaver trapping.
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:02 pm
by Malcolm
Are computers a great teaching aid and are older people less proficient with new tech.
The answer seems to be "yes" in either case.
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:11 pm
by Vince
No (not "great" teaching tools) and "somewhat".
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:19 pm
by TPRJones
The quality of a computer as a teaching tool is very heavily dependent on the quality of the software in question and the skill and ingenuity of the lesson planner. It's not a "just set them down and do something else while they learn" teaching tool, no. But as an example Minecraft in the right teacher's hands is a remarkable tool for teaching young children everything from cooperation to planning for the future to creative architecture.
Once it goes live and gets into the hands of young kids, Kerbal Space Program is going to single-handedly revive our space science initiatives and give a new generation of rocket nerds a better gut understanding of orbital mechanics unmatched by anyone that hasn't personally been in orbit.
Note that all my examples are games. Games are the best teaching tools on a computer. Interactivity is key. No one really learns anything from sites like Wikipedia.
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:35 pm
by TheCatt
What TPR said.
There needs to be a teacher, or sufficiently autonomous and intelligent AI, to guide the student, handle some level of interactions or concept explaining, but most of the testing, quizzing, and learning can be done via technology. I've seen it with my own kids, already. I can be there to help on difficult things, and the computer can adapt the learning to the level of the student.
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:23 pm
by Malcolm
Interactivity is key. No one really learns anything from sites like Wikipedia.
I somewhat disagree. I've learned much with flashcards or less. Granted "learned" = "memorized" which may or may not agree with your definitions.
Games are the best teaching tools on a computer.
Here we are. Games are some of the best teaching tools, period. For that reason and that reason alone, I'll say the potential of superior technology gives computers at least a "great" on the teaching scale. I'm sure you can get along fine with chalk and slate and have a perfectly good learning experience, just like you can program with 64K of RAM and have a perfectly good gaming experience. But really though, don't you like having a few gigs of RAM instead? Can't you pull off more impressive shit?
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:39 pm
by TPRJones
Code: Select all
Granted "learned" = "memorized" which may or may not agree with your definitions.
It doesn't. When I talk of learning I mean that gut-level understanding of a system or a process or what have you that comes from experience. You can't get all the way there from anything but actual long term practice, but learning should give you the seeds of that sort of understanding. If it's something you can answer relatively easily with google, then knowing that isn't what I would consider learning.
There's little point in memorizing your reference material in most cases in the real world.[/color]
Edited By TPRJones on 1407195639
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:09 pm
by TheCatt
TPRJones wrote:There's little point in memorizing your reference material in most cases in the real world.
Medicine.
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:13 pm
by Vince
TheCatt wrote:There needs to be a teacher, or sufficiently autonomous and intelligent AI, to guide the student, handle some level of interactions or concept explaining...
The irony is once we reach that level of AI, what will be the point of education? All we'll be needed for is the manual labor.
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:33 pm
by Malcolm
Vince wrote:TheCatt wrote:There needs to be a teacher, or sufficiently autonomous and intelligent AI, to guide the student, handle some level of interactions or concept explaining...
The irony is once we reach that level of AI, what will be the point of education? All we'll be needed for is the manual labor.
After we develop that level of AI, we'll need education to combat the newly produced robot army trying to render us extinct.
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:59 pm
by Vince
There will be no army trying to render us extinct. The AI will simply hold the digital world hostage. Businesses would lose billions every hour unable to run debit and credit transactions. Electronic trading on Wall Street drops. Stores can't place their orders for new goods.
It'll be really sad.
Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:26 am
by Malcolm
Vince wrote:There will be no army trying to render us extinct. The AI will simply hold the digital world hostage. Businesses would lose billions every hour unable to run debit and credit transactions. Electronic trading on Wall Street drops. Stores can't place their orders for new goods.
It'll be really sad.
Much like Lawnmower Man 2.
Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:02 am
by Vince
Did they do it like that? I don't even know if I've seen that one. Would have hit VHS during my drinking days. So I may have seen it. May have not. Definitely saw the first one.
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:55 pm
by TheCatt
TheCatt wrote:At this point, I've given up on people over 40. They. Just. Don't. Get. It. :p
I was right.
Six-year-olds show more knowledge of technology than a 45-year-old,