Welcome to Thunderdome

TheCatt wrote:I'm somewhat worried about China ... attacking our quite vulnerable infrastructure (electricity, water, etc)

Considering that they've never once denied a request, it's not a review system it's a rubber stamp. Doesn't count.

It's a collection of thousands of smaller evil entities, all working for their own ends which almost always end up screwing over the citizens they are sworn to "serve".

Evil? Depends how you define it.

...regardless of how compliant it is with law, was still a secret, and violating our secrets should be punishable.

TPRJones wrote:

Evil? Depends how you define it.

My general definition would be extreme and willful inconsideration of the needs and desires of fellow humans to serve ones own ends (exceptions being made for "I must feed my family and if that means I take your food to do so then so be it" type situations. When there is not enough food nor shelter, you can't really have good or evil just the fight to survive). A Congressperson wallowing in personal greed at the expense of the citizenry certainly qualifies as extreme evil in my book.

Malcolm wrote:"Willful inconsideration" means you have to be aware you're stomping on someone. Most people who ride roughshod over others genuinely believe they're in the right and doing good.

The test, then, would be that if they are made aware of the consequences of their actions do they show remorse and change their ways. If not, then evil, if so, then they were merely ignorant or inventive.

"That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient. That is not who we are.


"We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary."

Malcolm wrote:Goddamnit, now I'm agreeing with the EU, in principle.

TheCatt wrote:

Malcolm wrote:Goddamnit, now I'm agreeing with the EU, in principle.

Then you are clearly wrong :p

Where there are government secrets there can be no Democracy.

Leisher wrote:I disagree with that as a black and white statement, however I do think that we should know 95% of what the government knows.

And we should know the last 5% as soon as circumstances allow it.

GORDON wrote:1. Warrantless wire taps.

The phone records program, disclosed last week by Britain’s Guardian newspaper, collects customer “metadata,” including the phone numbers dialed and the length of calls — and, senators said, location data, which intelligence analysts use to detect patterns and personal connections. The administration said that the program does not monitor the content of calls and that it has been reviewed by the courts and Congress.

A separate Internet surveillance program, known as PRISM, allows the NSA to collect videos, photos, e-mails, documents and connection logs for foreign users located overseas through nine leading Internet companies. The government obtains the data through orders approved by the secret court established by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. That program was disclosed by The Washington Post and the Guardian.

A separate Internet surveillance program, known as PRISM, allows the NSA to collect videos, photos, e-mails, documents and connection logs for foreign users located overseas through nine leading Internet companies.

The law allows for the targeting of any customers of participating firms who live outside the US, or those Americans whose communications include people outside the US.