Welcome to Thunderdome

Leisher wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:07 am First, human nature is a real thing. Some people work harder. Some people want more. Some people are smarter. Trying to equalize those things means holding down our best and brightest because there's no way to improve those traits in all others.

No argument. Not trying to Harrison Bergeron the world.

Leisher wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:07 am Second, you need human beings to want and need. That is what drives us as a species. "Necessity is the mother of invention."

I mostly agree. But I've had a LOT of inspiration for things when I'm able to get away from everything. When not worrying about bills, healthcare, food, and all the basics needed for life, my brain can really get wild with ideas, make connections, and come up with new ideas. If you're working two minimum wage jobs to survive, taking the bus to work, etc, it's hard to have time to really focus on thoughts.

Leisher wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:07 am Third, go ahead and draw the line at both ends of your spectrum. Now show me where everyone on Earth will finally be happy with the lines you've drawn. We all know that no such line exists. In fact, more people will be unsatisfied with your line than satisfied.

I wouldn't draw lines, but I would add friction to each side (which, would require drawing lines for where to ramp up/down the friction, sure), but no hard absolutes. I would increase minimum wage, $15/hour. If you work, it will be worth. Having a 40-hour/week job should get you out of poverty (living by yourself, shared housing). Ramp up taxes. Get rid of lower Long Term Capital Gains tax breaks based on income or wealth. Musk, Buffet, Gates, etc don't need a 20% tax rate on their stock gains. Especially when doctors are paying 40% of their income in taxes. It's non-sensical.

Leisher wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:07 am If the government continues to allow tax loopholes, that is THEIR fault, not some billionaire's.

Although, the billionaire may have paid for that tax break (see property developers).

Leisher wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:07 am AOC wore a several thousand dollar dress to the Met Gala that said, "Eat the rich", was a bartender before becoming a Senator, now is a multimillionaire after being elected,

The dress was a loan, iirc. And she is not a multimillionaire, this is objectively false. She's been making about $174k for 4 years. Her net worth is estimated to be about $250k, which I'm going to assume is lower than yours.

Leisher wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:07 am and drives an expensive Tesla.

This is also false. She drives a base Model 3, which MSRPs just under $40k. (Average new car price in 2022, $48k).

How much do you think a gallon of milk costs?

GORDON wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:44 am How much do you think a gallon of milk costs?

Sounds like something my wife knows. I would guess $4-5?

I'm lactose intolerant. Don't drink it.

TheCatt wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:42 am I mostly agree. But I've had a LOT of inspiration for things when I'm able to get away from everything. When not worrying about bills, healthcare, food, and all the basics needed for life, my brain can really get wild with ideas, make connections, and come up with new ideas. If you're working two minimum wage jobs to survive, taking the bus to work, etc, it's hard to have time to really focus on thoughts.

We're really in agreement here, but that stress is what ones needs to produce the genius. Some people just don't have it. Or in your case, you fail because you let other concerns keep your genius hidden. To contrast, I'm the opposite. When I have all the time in the world and no stress, I tend to not push my brain to innovation. However, in times of stress, that's when I find myself being most creative. I'm sure there's a natural selection argument to be made about our brains work differently and how that came about.

TheCatt wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:42 am I would increase minimum wage, $15/hour. If you work, it will be worth. Having a 40-hour/week job should get you out of poverty (living by yourself, shared housing).

This would be a super fascinating conversation. How do we raise minimum wage without hurting M&Ps or SMBs, particularly those working on razor thin margins, like restaurants (I saw 3% as a number somewhere.)? Should any 40 hr/wk job get you out of poverty? It's easy to say, but a fry cook at McDonald's that requires zero skill and can be filled by a 16 year old? Does that job need to pay that kid that much money? A wage that has to increase with COLA each year? Further cutting into profits or being passed onto consumers. Maybe a line gets drawn based on age? A teenager attending high school doesn't need to make the same as a 25 yr old single mom. However, we just made that single mom unattractive as an employee. What about mandating that once jobs become 40hr/wk jobs then they must pay a certain scale? Now we just eliminated 40hr/wk jobs, which is the same thing we saw when Obamacare was implemented.

There's a lot to unpack there and we haven't even gotten into how much this will affect the salary demands of people making $15/hr and above. They're not going to be happy because we just pay decreases because COLA is absolutely going to skyrocket as we just doubled the salary of the most unwise spenders in the nation. Therefore all prices are going to rise because the folks who do the least amount of saving and research are going to be throwing money around like a lottery winner in a strip club.

TheCatt wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:42 amRamp up taxes.

Can we maybe, just MAYBE, take a look at spending first? If you're holding a bottle of water and the water level is just dropping by the second is your first instinct to just put more water in? Aren't you curious about why the floor is suddenly all wet?

I don't mean a general overview either. Let's really start digging into the different acronym agencies and see where their money is being spent. You don't get trillions of dollars into debt without a lot of bad decisions.

Oh, and how about a law mandating a spending freeze? The government's annual budget, by law, can no longer exceed tax revenue from the prior year +2%. Also, borrowing is no longer allowed outside of national emergency or war.

Call me insane if you want, but I think the best way to help Americans and the economy is to stop the out of control government spending. We are pissing away money we don't have. It's not sustainable.

TheCatt wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:42 am Although, the billionaire may have paid for that tax break (see property developers).

They probably did, and here's another area that needs improving: lobbyists and the blatant enriching of Congresspeople. The hammer needs to be dropped and harsh rules and punishments enacted. Thankfully the people who can do that are the same ones who do it, so...

Speaking of...

TheCatt wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:42 am The dress was a loan, iirc. And she is not a multimillionaire, this is objectively false. She's been making about $174k for 4 years. Her net worth is estimated to be about $250k, which I'm going to assume is lower than yours.

Call me when her ethics hearing is over or when she's done in Congress. Until then it's simple to not have money when you're wined and dined by your owners. She's already been caught blatantly lying and pulling political stunts, are we really to believe her ethics won't allow her to get paid?

TheCatt wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:42 am She drives a base Model 3, which MSRPs just under $40k. (Average new car price in 2022, $48k).

Her car is almost 4 times what I paid for my car.

Leisher wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:12 pm However, in times of stress, that's when I find myself being most creative. I'm sure there's a natural selection argument to be made about our brains work differently and how that came about.

I get inspiration in those kinds of moments, too, but I'd say they're different. More tactical inspiration than big picture, imho. When without stress, I can reinvent the world*.

Leisher wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:12 pm It's easy to say, but a fry cook at McDonald's that requires zero skill and can be filled by a 16 year old? Does that job need to pay that kid that much money? A wage that has to increase with COLA each year? Further cutting into profits or being passed onto consumers.

Yes. There's no need to make this complicated.

Leisher wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:12 pm What about mandating that once jobs become 40hr/wk jobs then they must pay a certain scale? Now we just eliminated 40hr/wk jobs, which is the same thing we saw when Obamacare was implemented.

Yes, so we can't do that. Thus the simpler floor.

Leisher wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:12 pm How do we raise minimum wage without hurting M&Ps or SMBs, particularly those working on razor thin margins, like restaurants (I saw 3% as a number somewhere.)?

They raise prices, and then, people who make $15 can afford to go there still. If these businesses need their workers on public assistance (see: Walmart and McDonalds) to support their employees, they're already failing, and the taxpayers shouldn't be supporting them.

Leisher wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:12 pm Can we maybe, just MAYBE, take a look at spending first? If you're holding a bottle of water and the water level is just dropping by the second is your first instinct to just put more water in? Aren't you curious about why the floor is suddenly all wet?

Sure, go ahead, do that, too. Let's get rid of the military. 50% of spending is transfer payments (old people, disabled people, poor people), 16% is military, the other 1/3rd is various programs + interest. I just don't think you'll get very far with elected officials.

Leisher wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:12 pm Her car is almost 4 times what I paid for my car.

It's 13x what I paid for mine. But, uh less than half of my other car I have two cars, so I have the right to use whichever one supports whatever argument I'm trying to make! Does your wife drive a nicer car?

TheCatt wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:17 pm Yes. There's no need to make this complicated.

A teen with zero skills and no experience making the same as an adult with skills and experience? I don't know the fix, but that math doesn't add up to me and I'm betting it won't add up for a lot of people. They'll be pissed and quit to get skills and get a real job...Wait a minute...

Seriously though, I know it'd be difficult, but I would toy around more with the levels for wages. How you do that I have zero interest in thinking about at the moment.

TheCatt wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:17 pm They raise prices, and then, people who make $15 can afford to go there still.

Color me very skeptical. Some fast food places already sell sandwiches that cost more than the current minimum wage.

TheCatt wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:17 pm If these businesses need their workers on public assistance (see: Walmart and McDonalds) to support their employees, they're already failing, and the taxpayers shouldn't be supporting them.

We do not disagree here at all. (See: Capitalism with a Conscious - This would fit into the "make your community and your employee's lives better.")

TheCatt wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:17 pm Let's get rid of the military.

Right, we will never need them again. Wars were for boomers. Now if a country steps out of line we'll just cancel them!

TheCatt wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:17 pm 50% of spending is transfer payments (old people, disabled people, poor people)

Let's just start killing them like in Canada and their awesome health care system. Better yet: Soylent Green - Eliminate a problem AND sell the results for profit!

TheCatt wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:17 pm I just don't think you'll get very far with elected officials.

Not unless I can use all the money we save from the world being a utopia and buy them all.

TheCatt wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:17 pm Does your wife drive a nicer car?

More expensive than mine, but no. It's a minivan and older than my car.

Leisher wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:35 pm Some fast food places already sell sandwiches that cost more than the current minimum wage.

25% labor cost. Labor cost doubles (not really, since many places are already paying more than $7.25), cost of a sandwich increases 25%. The worker making $7 can now make $15, while the $5 big mac goes to $6.25

Leisher wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:35 pm Let's just start killing them like in Canada and their awesome health care system

That was kinda funny. In a grim way.

Leisher wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:35 pm More expensive than mine, but no. It's a minivan and older than my car.

You need an upgrade!

In Denmark, McDonalds employees make $22/hour, but has cheaper (or roughly same price) Big Macs!

TheCatt wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:17 pm If these businesses need their workers on public assistance (see: Walmart and McDonalds) to support their employees, they're already failing

You see, I blame the employees here. When a person decides to get married and start a family and can't support them because they can't get a job better than at Walmart. I don't see Walmart as the failure here.

Could Walmart afford to profit less by paying their employees more? Sure (Capitalism with a conscience?). But it's not like the person didn't know he'd only make $10 working at Walmart. It's not like he went out and started a family only to discover that Walmart only pays $10 and was like "Where did this come from!? I had no idea this is all you can make with no skills!!".

There are also people out there that really can't function on a higher level and do need public assistance because they are not capable of more than working at Walmart. I don't think we should deny them a family, etc, simply because they can't afford it. I'm ok with helping them out, and I don't think it's Walmart's job to do that (alone). I have often said "Walmart employs the unemployable." These are people that can't help themselves and society can and should help them out. Again, Walmart shouldn't have to do it all by themselves.

It's the people that ARE capable of doing more, having jobs, etc, but decide to work shit jobs or coast on public assistance that I have a problem with. Don't cry to me because Walmart doesn't pay enough. Apply yourself. You are capable of more, you just choose to do nothing with yourself because it's easier and other people have to pay for your lack of effort. Again, not Walmart's fault.

TheCatt wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:54 pm 25% labor cost. Labor cost doubles (not really, since many places are already paying more than $7.25), cost of a sandwich increases 25%. The worker making $7 can now make $15, while the $5 big mac goes to $6.25

I'd argue the cost goes up a lot more than that. The wage increases are through the entire supply chain, including utilities, trash pickup, and the construction guys who made the building, not just what McD's is paying their people.

GORDON wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:51 am

TheCatt wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:54 pm 25% labor cost. Labor cost doubles (not really, since many places are already paying more than $7.25), cost of a sandwich increases 25%. The worker making $7 can now make $15, while the $5 big mac goes to $6.25

I'd argue the cost goes up a lot more than that. The wage increases are through the entire supply chain, not just what McD's is paying their people.

Either way, it's still less than the wage gains for those people. And other economies pay more without ill effect.

TheCatt wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:53 am

GORDON wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:51 am

TheCatt wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:54 pm 25% labor cost. Labor cost doubles (not really, since many places are already paying more than $7.25), cost of a sandwich increases 25%. The worker making $7 can now make $15, while the $5 big mac goes to $6.25

I'd argue the cost goes up a lot more than that. The wage increases are through the entire supply chain, not just what McD's is paying their people.

Either way, it's still less than the wage gains for those people. And other economies pay more without ill effect.

I hear you, and generally agree. I'd also argue though that "wage increases" give them an opportunity to jack up prices more than it would warrant, suggested by record profits in a recession.

GORDON wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:00 am I'd also argue though that "wage increases" give them an opportunity to jack up prices more than it would warrant, suggested by record profits in a recession.

This.
Can't have a single quarter without "record profits" or Wall St gets angry.

GORDON wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:00 am suggested by record profits in a recession.

that would be quite an accomplishment. It's never happened before and isn't happening now

TheCatt wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:37 am

GORDON wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:00 am suggested by record profits in a recession.

that would be quite an accomplishment. It's never happened before and isn't happening now

If he changes "recession" to high inflation that changes your response doesn't it smartass?

I mean, 2 + 2 = 4, but if you change of the 2s it doesnt

Yeah, his word usage was incorrect, but his point remains.

Leisher wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:45 am Yeah, his word usage was incorrect, but his point remains.

Inflation should DEFINITELY correspond to higher corporate profits.

TheCatt wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:18 pm Inflation should DEFINITELY correspond to higher corporate profits.

It should, but SHOULD it?

Arizona Iced Tea being a good example. They went out of their way to proclaim they were still $.99 and that wouldn't change. I pointed out that just proves it's priced extremely high compared to their cost, but they could have easily gone to $1.09 or something without anyone raising an eyebrow.

Making higher and higher profits is the goal, but long term thinking should also be the goal. And IS until you bring Wall St and their "make more every quarter" demands into it.

If everyone is suffering, but you're still making a profit, wouldn't freezing prices at a profitable level make sense? You creating brand loyalty, helping the community, ensuring consumer purchasing power maintains, and so on.

It's strange because in the business school I just attended where we read stuff by Adam Smith and other capitalists this sort of thinking was promoted. What was never covered by any of them is "Fuck everyone over in every way possible to continue the unsustainable trend of making record quarterly profits every quarter so Wall St assholes get rich and so do you and your C suite cronies. Who cares if the company is fucked long term or you get fired? You got your bank! Plus some other place will hire you to come in and do the same there."

But whatever. Humans are involved so shit will always get fucked.

We have totally derailed this thread, so here's some nurses who thought they could make TikToks mocking their patients.

Almost all lawmakers make money off of dividends. Why would they pass a law reducing how much money they make off dividends?

Blood.

GORDON wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:57 pm Almost all lawmakers make money off of dividends. Why would they pass a law reducing how much money they make off dividends?

Blood.

And that's why this eventually ends in blood, yes.

People playing the game now are just praying they're dead and gone before the check comes due.