2024 General Election Thread

[TheCatt]

The chart says houses are affordable, but the actual consumers are saying bullshit. Considering most people need loans to buy groceries, I'd say the consumers are right.

Are you misreading the chart? Higher = more affordable, lower = less affordable. The index is currently lower than it's been since the early 90s.

First, consumers are supposed to have equal control in that invisible hand, but they have nothing. The invisible hand is just viciously fisting them.

This isn't true. People always have options, there's like 20 kinds of pepperoni at my grocery store, there's 7 grocery stores within 1 mile of our house. Soooo many options. Meat too expensive? Don't eat it. There's your control.

But, let's say you are right: Consumers have less power than they had 5 years ago. How do they get it back?

"A rising tide lifts all ships" or however that goes.

Median incomes are up. GDP is up. People are much wealthier than they were 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50 years ago. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

[TheCatt]

[Cakedaddy]

Yes, I know, "invisible hand", but as I mentioned, consumers have lost their power over the hand.

I feel like they gave a lot of their power up when the free money started rolling in.

They spent it. All of it. Much of it on nonessentials. Created a huge demand, along with a supply shortage, etc. Prices started going up, but they didn't care. They were spending found money.
With this free money, many people quit their jobs. They didn't need to work any more.
Created a labor shortage and people (greed) took advantage of it quitting and demanding more pay. Driving costs up.
When the free money ran out, people liked this new lifestyle of excess. They didn't go back to work and started living off of savings and credit cards.
People eventually started going back to work. They lost their labor power and wages went back down (in many sectors).
Now the bill is due (credit cards) and they are scrambling to pay for stuff. Plus, the prices they helped drive up are sticking cause 'fuck you, pay me' from the corporations. People are still trying to buy the same stuff they used to, but the prices are higher, creating stress, etc.
They still have a hand in everything, but everyone is going to have to tighten their belts to pay off the mess they helped create. But no one wants to.

Rich people feel it, it just doesn't hurt as much. It's eating into their disposable income. Poor people feel it cause they have zero disposable income unless they go back on Ramen noodles, which they don't want to do.

If people want prices to go back down, they must stop buying stuff. We can't keep trying to be that farmer guy from earlier. "I want the price of the stuff I sell to stay high. But I want the prices of the stuff you sell, and I buy to be lower".

[Leisher]

Are you misreading the chart? Higher = more affordable, lower = less affordable. The index is currently lower than it's been since the early 90s.

Wait yes. Apologies. I thought you and the chart were arguing houses were MORE affordable right now.

Based on the lack of inventory (blame politicians), AirBnB type businesses buying so much of it, prices being inflated, and mortgage rates being higher than recent history (although, back to historical rates, which you have pointed out), I was confused as to why the chart would deem houses affordable right now.

This isn't true. People always have options, there's like 20 kinds of pepperoni at my grocery store, there's 7 grocery stores within 1 mile of our house. Soooo many options. Meat too expensive? Don't eat it. There's your control.

We have some control, sure. I would not dispute that. What I'm saying is that we don't have equal control. ESG/DEI is a good example of how Wall St clearly had the ability to force immediate change throughout the world. A very small group of people forced an ideology and, depending on the industry, is still being pushed. Star Wars is a good example of how consumers don't have the same power. ESG/DEI pushed by Kathleen Kennedy has almost completely destroyed the franchise, and they keep pushing their horseshit despite massive fan backlash.

And maybe that's how they get it back. Keep protesting and refusing to buy things. Currently, Hollywood is badly struggling, yet instead of shutting their mouths, they keep making woke shit and preaching to people on how to live and how to vote.

"Rs buy shoes too." - Michael Jordan

Median incomes are up. GDP is up. People are much wealthier than they were 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50 years ago.

I think this is a bit false. Not the numbers, obviously, but there's a disconnect somewhere. Why are so many people struggling? Why is CC debt at record highs? Is it just fiscal irresponsibility by consumers? Not something I'd dismiss as I think social media has made "Keeping up with the Joneses" a real problem, which addresses some of what Cake discussed.

I don't know. I just know that over half of all Americans are doing bad enough that they don't pay taxes. How can things be awesome?

[GORDON]

I keep picturing a french bourgeoisie in 1750 in the guillotine protesting, "But the economy is great! The numbers say it's all great! You're doing so well!" as the starving people cut his head off.

[TheCatt]

What Cake said. People got drunk on free money. But the rich got much more free money, fucking it all up for the rest (simplifying).

You want power? Get skills people want, and get a good job. Or stop buying the things.

Why is CC debt at record highs?

I mean, by definition it always will be, give or take, in nominal terms. As a percentage of disposable income, it is not: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/TDSP

[Leisher]

I keep picturing a french bourgeoisie in 1750 in the guillotine protesting, "But the economy is great! The numbers say it's all great! You're doing so well!" as the starving people cut his head off.

Exactly.

Not discounting anything Catt is saying and I generally agree with it all. However, the tone of it is definitely, "Let them eat cake." (Not saying Cake is saying that!!! Although, maybe he is...fucking elitist... )

Also, I was wrong, it's over 40% that didn't pay federal income tax. Still an extremely high number and indicates to me more of a problem with the economy than all the traditional numbers telling me it's awesome and everyone is doing great.

Add onto that 70-80% of all Americans report living paycheck to paycheck and it's pretty clear that something is wrong.

And yes, I also 100% accept that a lot of people have no fiscal responsibility and play the unwinnable game of "Keeping up with the Joneses".

You want power? Get skills people want, and get a good job. Or stop buying the things.

This is true, but impossible. There's too many people and we're too diverse. I mentioned a boycott here months ago that was simply about lowering prices and matching EU standards for food ingredients and the response was basically, "Can't be bothered" or "Don't care". If we can't motivate people for food that isn't poison at prices that aren't jacked through the roof, what will motivate people? (Besides boobs?)

[TheCatt]

I'm saying give the people some help. I'm definitely not saying "let them eat cake" I don't know how I'm being this badly misunderstood.

Me: make life easier for people.
Gordon/Leisher: Why do you hate people?

[GORDON]

It's your tone, and your "here's how to fix it but I don't think it's feasible" was like a short blurb.

We're saying "The rich keep saying everything is fine, but the majority of people don't think it's fine."

Your response, every time, is "The numbers say it's fine. Stop sucking so much."

[TheCatt]

You were more fun to debate when you read.

[GORDON]

You didn't say, multiple times, "people need to get skills that are more marketable, and stop spending so much?"

Because the entire problem is that not long ago, a person with a job could always find an affordable house. People don't want to be more competitive, they don't want to get less for more, and they want the things and opportunities their parents had. When they can't get it, they feel cheated. When they feel cheated, they think about guillotines for the people telling them everything is fine, the numbers are great, and they need to stop sucking as much.

You would also not win a presidential election.

[TheCatt]

They should stop voting for trickle down economics.

[GORDON]

"They" couldn't define it on a double dare.

I'm not saying anything you are saying is wrong. I'm saying the numbers that have made a great economy for 30% of people are not showing another data point (or five) that has made the economy terrible for about 53% of them. With observed parallels about what arrogance has done to the upper class, in the past, when the lower class got pissed off enough.

Peeps just want the same opportunities their parents had. A big majority don't. Something is broken somewhere, and the peeps in charge rightly get the blame.

And it has nothing to do with my reading comprehension.

[TheCatt]

I gave specific things that would help the people you say need help, and you said I told them to eat cake.

[GORDON]

I said that was your tone. And Leisher agreed. But like the democrats lately... "everyone is wrong and they didn't mean to vote that way."

BAM reading comprehension reverse uno.

[TheCatt]

eye roll

[GORDON]

That being said, "The other side is just wrong and stupid" is a terrible strategy to take into the next election where you just got shellacked.

[TheCatt]

Peeps just want the same opportunities their parents had. A big majority don't. Something is broken somewhere, and the peeps in charge rightly get the blame.

OK, how?

[GORDON]

I suspect the rise of AirBnB (and clones and foreigners being allowed to own US property), and people holding on/acquiring properties with the intent to be a hassle-free landlord, added to the cost of housing increase.

I suspect that the government mandated health insurance (which isn't insurance), without any price controls, added to health care costs skyrocketing. We all have a multi-billion profiting middle man between us and our health care. That is insane to me.

I suspect COVID quarantine responses, which were obviously and demonstrably never, ever going to work, and didn't, contributed to supply and supply chain issues.

I suspect that the "woohoo free money" payments back then contributed to inflation.

I suspect that salaries not keeping pace with housing contributes to the malaise. "Sorry I can't give you the raise you're asking for and deserve, the darn shareholders don't allow raises between performance evaluations. Sowwy!"

All of these things fit into "less money/higher costs" that feeds on itself.

In 1993 I bought my first house, at the age of 22, for $55k, on $28k per year military salary. In a walled neighborhood in a small city, not even out in the boonies. My kid will not be so lucky.

In 1998 I worked for a major public corporation with about 10k employees, mostly women getting pregnant left and right. My health insurance was $160/month, family plan. $10 copays, $10 meds, no "multi-$K minimum out of pocket" whatevers. People are now paying 10 times that, for worse coverage.

The younger peeps just want it as good as their parents had it, one generation ago, and they're not even close, no matter what the awesome economic numbers say. There's a lot of anger and resentment when someone tells them "everything is fine, the numbers are great. Don't suck so much maybe."

Something is broken. The Biden administration was full of smart, educated, clever, nice, sympathetic democrats and should have recognized it and at least addressed it, instead of just trying to keep their jobs. That's why they just got blown out.

[Leisher]

I think the politicians do deserve some blame, but not all of it. Let's say 50%. They're the enablers and certainly not fiscally responsible.

Corporations deserve the rest. Their mad race for profits above all has led to this situation. Nobody is willing to back down to make things more affordable because Wall St would be livid.