My priorities.

[TPRJones]

If we could just get the damn hippies in charge of the government to quit trying to save everyone from themselves, then we wouldn't have these problems with kids. It'd be self-correcting, as they'd starve to death or kill each other off.

Sure, it's the fault of the parents for raising the kids that way, but it's also the fault of government for reinforcing the bad behaviours and taking the sting out of any punishments that society and/or circumstances might have otherwise inflicted.

In short, if you don't let people make mistakes and deal with the consequences they'll never learn.

[GORDON]

Sure, it's the fault of the parents for raising the kids that way, but it's also the fault of government for reinforcing the bad behaviours and taking the sting out of any punishments that society and/or circumstances might have otherwise inflicted.

In short, if you don't let people make mistakes and deal with the consequences they'll never learn.

We're looking at you, New Orleans.

[Vince]

Dear Vince,

Leave it to Beaver wasn't a documentary.
The Pope is fallible.
Things change.

Get your head out of your ass and get over it. Stop being so fucking afraid.

I understand and appreciate that not everyone is going to share in my beliefs. There are many here on the forums that do not agree with me on this issue. I enjoy the back and forth of the discussion. I don’t mind having my views challenged.

Of all the people here that disagree with me, only one entered into the discussion with the emotional maturity of an 8 year old. “You’re retarded! You’re retarded! Nanner nanner boo boo!”

You’re right. Things change. It has been observed that the genesis of your change centers on the time of your marriage. That appears to be when you began your spiral into anger and bitterness. I don’t know if the wife stopped putting out after the nuptials, or married life wasn’t what you expected, or you’ve concluded that you’re living a lie and are actually homosexual. Whatever is at the root of it, you might want to address it before you alienate everyone around you. Get a mistress. Get a divorce. Get a rainbow sticker to slap on your bumper. Be loud and proud! Whatever it is, it’s not healthy and it’s causing things to come out sideways in your day-to-day interactions.

[Vince]

Vince, you started by saying, "Gays can have a union, but don't call it marriage". Yet, everything you've said since then says you don't want that union to be recognized. I got the impression that you'd recognize the union, you just wanted it called "Banana Pie" (or whatever word they wanted I guess), instead of marriage. So, where exactly do you stand as far as the gay union thing?

I don't have a problem with recognizing the union for purposes of taxes and health care, etc. I have a couple of issues with making it a "marriage". First, it's just not the same as a traditional marriage. Say what you will, but it's not. It never will be. There is a certain amount of biology involved that will always set it apart.

Anyway, that's where I stand. However, your last statement gave me pause. They would then have equal standing when adopting kids. But then I thought, is it better for the kid to stay in foster care, or be raised by fags? Hmmm. Could go either way on that one.

Let me state again that I think that kids are much better off with a gay couple that they are in the foster care system (at least in its current state). This brings me to my second problem with calling it "marriage" and giving it the same full legal standing as marriages between man and woman. What are the legal ramifications that we haven't even considered yet. One would be adoption.

I think we'd all agree that a child would be better off with a loving gay couple than they would be in the foster care system. But would the child be better off raised by a heterosexual couple or a gay couple? I would imagine that there has to be some impact on a child's development and sense of self being raised in a gay household. Not to mention normal sexual development when they hit puberty (and no, I in no way believe that a gay couple raising a child would in any way make the child gay).

So is this impact negative enough that heterosexual couples should be considered before gay couples for the purposes of adoption? At this point we don't know. But as soon as we recognize a gay union as being fully equal to a heterosexual marriage, then it doesn't matter anymore because we've given them legal equality even if it turns out that a homosexual household is extremely detrimental to the development of the child.

"Sorry you're fucked up kid, but your life and future isn't as important as making gay people feel like society loves and accepts them."

[Vince]

Last time I checked, the national stats showed that the most likely kids to do drugs and commit crimes were raised by a single parent. I don't see national debates and news stories about stopping that behavior. In fact, being a single mother has become something of a badge of honor for some women.

Very true. Now how did that occur? It was because liberal thinkers decided that it was cruel and heartless to judge women that got knocked up out of wedlock.

Back in the day when a high school girl got pregnant, she dropped out of school for a while. When she came back, her 45 year old parents had miraculously given birth to younger sibling for her.

It really WAS cruel and heartless to judge the young girls so harshly, but that stigma really did help to curtail the behavior. The lowering of societal standards increased the behavior.

There will always be aberrant behaviour. I'm not so naive or "retarded" to think otherwise. There will also always be taxes, STD's and ugly chicks. That doesn't mean I want more of any of them.

[TPRJones]

I think we'd all agree that a child would be better off with a loving gay couple than they would be in the foster care system. But would the child be better off raised by a heterosexual couple or a gay couple? I would imagine that there has to be some impact on a child's development and sense of self being raised in a gay household. Not to mention normal sexual development when they hit puberty (and no, I in no way believe that a gay couple raising a child would in any way make the child gay).

Admittedly, I can see where a particularly militant homosexual couple might try to gay up the kids. But I doubt it would be any more common than heterosexual couples that try to "straighten out" their gay children and end up messing them all up in the process.

All parents screw it up, that's part of what being a parent is.

[GORDON]

Admittedly, I can see where a particularly militant homosexual couple might try to gay up the kids.

Moby said he was going to do that once.

He said it once. He'd probably try to gay up as many kids as he could.

[Vince]

Admittedly, I can see where a particularly militant homosexual couple might try to gay up the kids. But I doubt it would be any more common than heterosexual couples that try to "straighten out" their gay children and end up messing them all up in the process.

I said that being raised in a gay household WOULD NOT make a kid gay. If I implied that in any way that it could or would I apologize. I don't believe that at all. But I do think it could be very confusing for a kid in their own development. The same way a kid in a household where the dad is beating the mom (or vice versa) tends to produce kids that don't have healthy relationships with the opposite sex.

[TheCatt]

You’re right. Things change. It has been observed that the genesis of your change centers on the time of your marriage. That appears to be when you began your spiral into anger and bitterness. I don’t know if the wife stopped putting out after the nuptials, or married life wasn’t what you expected, or you’ve concluded that you’re living a lie and are actually homosexual. Whatever is at the root of it, you might want to address it before you alienate everyone around you. Get a mistress. Get a divorce. Get a rainbow sticker to slap on your bumper. Be loud and proud! Whatever it is, it’s not healthy and it’s causing things to come out sideways in your day-to-day interactions.

Strange. I was just mentioning tonight how you had changed over the past few years.

What you say is untrue, and I guess your "sophisticated" thirty-whatever year old way of saying I'm retarded.

Whatever.

Seriously, I'm not sure what's happened to you, but take a closer look inside yourself, not at me.



Edited By TheCatt on 1150341607

[TheCatt]

Admittedly, I can see where a particularly militant homosexual couple might try to gay up the kids. But I doubt it would be any more common than heterosexual couples that try to "straighten out" their gay children and end up messing them all up in the process.

I said that being raised in a gay household WOULD NOT make a kid gay. If I implied that in any way that it could or would I apologize. I don't believe that at all. But I do think it could be very confusing for a kid in their own development. The same way a kid in a household where the dad is beating the mom (or vice versa) tends to produce kids that don't have healthy relationships with the opposite sex.

So being raised by gay parents is like living in an abusive household?

I'd love to see that data.

[TPRJones]

Yeah, I was just thinking that seemed like a rather extreme comparison to make. I didn't think you were saying it would make the kids gay, but it did seem you were saying that it may confuse them ... now I see you meant it may leave them scarred for life by the trauma.

I see no basis for either assumption. I don't see how having two daddys could be all that confusing or traumatizing for a kid. No more than, say, having a step-parent of a different race. In either case the kid will catch some crap from other kids for being different, sure, but no more so than any other kid that is in some way unusual.

[Vince]

Yeah, I was just thinking that seemed like a rather extreme comparison to make. I didn't think you were saying it would make the kids gay, but it did seem you were saying that it may confuse them ... now I see you meant it may leave them scarred for life by the trauma.

I see no basis for either assumption. I don't see how having two daddys could be all that confusing or traumatizing for a kid. No more than, say, having a step-parent of a different race. In either case the kid will catch some crap from other kids for being different, sure, but no more so than any other kid that is in some way unusual.

First off, I'm not comparing an abusive relation to a gay relationship other than saying that kids learn relationship patterns from their parents and I could see where it's possible that there might be some issues there with gay parents and a straight child.

I'll also admit that I have no evidence of it, or for that matter even a firm belief that it would actually be harmful. All I'm suggesting is that it merits investigating before giving a gay union the legal status of marriage where there's nothing that can be done about after the fact if it turn out to be harmful.

And I'm sure that there would be other legal minefields as well. The adoption thing was just one I had considered before.

[Vince]

Strange. I was just mentioning tonight how you had changed over the past few years.

Yes I have. I'm actually more tolerant than I used to be.

What you say is untrue, and I guess your "sophisticated" thirty-whatever year old way of saying I'm retarded.

I find you very intelligent, actually. Before you became so intolerant of anyone that didn't bow down to your way of thinking, I used to like reading what you had to say about things. Now it's kind of pointless.

I'm not trying to be sophisticated, I'm trying to be tactful. I might go as far as to say you're emotionally retarded, but I wouldn't use the term "retarded" in a derogatory manner in reference to your intelligence. Being mentally retarded isn't something that someone can help. Being a complete dickhead however, is a choice.

Seriously, I'm not sure what's happened to you, but take a closer look inside yourself, not at me.

I do a personal inventory pretty much every day. I always spend a few minutes in the morning in quiet meditation before leaving for work.

I'm only mentioning it to you this once. You can do what you want with it. You aren't significant enough for me to carry it beyond this mentioning of it. I wouldn't have mentioned it at all if I were the only one that's noticed it. Your smoldering anger and possible self loathing has been the topic of discussion in smoke filled back rooms on more than one occasion.

Until you were made an admin on the forum I was able to tolerate you. And when I could no longer tolerate you I could hit the "ignore" button and you became much more likeable. Now that your a forum admin, the ignore button doesn't hide your posts. You might have noticed my disappearing from the boards for a couple of weeks at a time.

[TheCatt]

You might have noticed my disappearing from the boards for a couple of weeks at a time.

Nope.

[TPRJones]

All I'm suggesting is that it merits investigating before giving a gay union the legal status of marriage where there's nothing that can be done about after the fact if it turn out to be harmful.

I'm sorry, but that sounds like another copout. If there is evidence discovered that homosexual couples are harmful for children, then all it takes is to not let them adopt. Currently any couple found to be abusive to their kids can't adopt, right? Use the same process.

Of course, for that you'd need evidence of some sort - instead of just a gut feeling - before engaging in discriminitory practices.

[Malcolm]

I've seen kids raised by hetero couples & I've seen kids raised by homo couples.

Kids are all insane no matter who raises them. I've not seen a significant trend in the level of insanity despite the sexuality of the parents.

[Mommy Dearest]

Bottom line it should have nothing to do with The Constitution of the United State of America.

[Malcolm]

Hah! The separation of Church & State died years ago.

[TheCatt]

Rambling...

You make no sense.

You claim you're trying to be tactful, yet you insult my wife, my marriage, my emotional maturity, my anger, you claim I'm self-loathing, that I'm in a spiral of anger and bitterness, that I might be gay, that I need a mistress, that I'm intolerant of those who think otherwise, etc, etc.

I merely called you and your thinking retarded. I have a good understanding of how you comport yourself, and why you've come to this stage as your are, I just don't understand why you accept it. Why you don't be more. Why so much fear? Why so afraid? I don't get it. I love life, I love this country. It's fun, it's exciting to see and hear different things and the constrasts.

I just don't get why you've reduced your thoughts to a bad talk radio show.

Explain that part to me.

[Paul]

I haven't been followng this thread, but the end is going to be where we all agree what a paradise this world shall be when Malcom takes his righful place as dictator.

And there won't be much argument against his policies on marriage.

I merely ask that there be no dudes in my alotment of concubines.



Edited By Paul on 1150425755