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Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:17 pm
by 71-1085092892
Posted by: GORDON on Aug. 28 2001,12:30
Open or closed borders? Selective? Temporary?
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Posted by: Cakedaddy on Aug. 28 2001,12:52
Let's just make an intelligence test.
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Posted by: thibodeaux on Aug. 28 2001,13:49
Even better, why assume that being born in a country automatically grants one citizenship? If we establish criteria for immigration, why not use the same, or similar, criteria to grant full citizenship, such as voting or office-holding rights?
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Posted by: GORDON on Aug. 28 2001,14:10
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Quote: from thibodeaux on 11:49 am on Aug. 28, 2001
Even better, why assume that being born in a country automatically grants one citizenship? If we establish criteria for immigration, why not use the same, or similar, criteria to grant full citizenship, such as voting or office-holding rights?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Interesting.
"Government" was a required class my senior year in high school. Perhaps....no high school graduation until you pass the citizenship test. Three chances to pass before....what?
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Posted by: Vince66 on Aug. 29 2001,10:23
Sure. Let's make citizenship rights contingent upon being white landowners.
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Posted by: GORDON on Aug. 29 2001,10:24
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Quote: from Vince66 on 8:23 am on Aug. 29, 2001
Sure. Let's make citizenship rights contingent upon being white landowners.
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Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:22 pm
by TheCatt
I'm in favor of immigrants with skillz and that want jobs we don't want.
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:52 pm
by TPRJones
I've always liked the way it's done in Starship Troopers (the excellent book, not that piece-of-shit movie).
Anyone who pays taxes is allowed to live here and take advantage of the benefits that taxpayers are allowed to have, regardless of where they came from. If you want to get in, you come in on a very short-term visa to visit or you pay cash equal to the mean tax paid by taxpayers in the prior year and that buys you permenant residence (as long as you keep paying taxes, of course).
If you want to vote or hold office or that sort of thing, then you have to devote two years to the service of your country. This wouldn't be limited to just military service, and would include the post office and a myriad of public service branches, all of which require dedication and effort and can be unpleasent or dangerous. Anyone can quit at any time (outside of battle conditions, at least), and if they do they never get a second chance.
Once the two years is up (or more if they reinlist), they become a citizen. They can vote, they can hold office, and they don't pay taxes anymore.
I don't know for sure that it would work, but it's got some potential. They only people holding the vote then are people that really care about their country, people that really don't want to pay taxes, or people with nothing else to do for two years. It's not perfect, but surely that's a better group of voters than "anyone over 18".
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 7:23 pm
by Malcolm
That sounds Romanesque. Only soldiers or ex-soldiers actually got a say in most shit, I think. Or was that Greece?
Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:53 am
by TPRJones
Malcolm wrote:That sounds Romanesque. Only soldiers or ex-soldiers actually got a say in most shit, I think. Or was that Greece?
Sort of, except I would expect that a very small percentage of those enlisting would actually serve as soldiers. Most would be doctors and lawyers and janitors and scientists and construction engineers and all sorts of other such stuff for the terms of their service.
Think of it more as volunteer full-time public service doing what you are told to do than enlisting in the army.
Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:57 am
by DictionaryDave
TPRJones wrote:Malcolm wrote:That sounds Romanesque. Only soldiers or ex-soldiers actually got a say in most shit, I think. Or was that Greece?
Sort of, except I would expect that a very small percentage of those enlisting would actually serve as soldiers. Most would be doctors and lawyers and janitors and scientists and construction engineers and all sorts of other such stuff for the terms of their service.
Think of it more as volunteer full-time public service doing what you are told to do than enlisting in the army.
I am with you TPRjones. Citizen by service and choice not by luck of birth.
Also no fucking protectorate countries that get citizenship but aren't a state (like Puerto Rico).
All or nothing you are in or out.
Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:05 pm
by mbilderback
Seems to me that if you remove taxes for those who are citizens, you can easily underfund the large government jobs that the people have to do.
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:40 pm
by TPRJones
What, you think the volunteers earning their citizenship are being paid? Just room and board, and maybe a very meager monthly stipend for other personal expenses.
There will be plenty of people who don't want to earn their citizenship, and aren't willing to give up two years of their life for tax-free status. Especially if have to work very hard for two years and can quit at any time when they think it's become too unpleasent. Most people won't join, and many that do won't see it through.
Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:03 pm
by 71-1085092892
The very successfull and/or rich won't need to do public service. As long as it isn't mandatory, it should be ok..,.
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:46 am
by mbilderback
You'd be an idiot not to spend 2 years in just to get out of spending all that money on taxes, especially if you're rich! I would think that it'd become in-vogue for the rich to do service as the rewards would be duly higher.
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:07 pm
by 71-1085092892
Yeah but if you'd lost more money in those 2 years by not doing whatever you're doing than you'd pay in taxes... or something.
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:10 pm
by mbilderback
How do you know how much money you are going to make from 20-65 to be taxed in comparison to what you make 18-20? Considering how finances change in those years, you'd still have to be a flaming moron not to go tax free. I think you'd have too many people not paying taxes.
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:10 pm
by TheCatt
TPRJones wrote:Once the two years is up (or more if they reinlist), they become a citizen. They can vote, they can hold office, and they don't pay taxes anymore.
Are you sure they don't pay taxes in ST?
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:15 pm
by unkbill
mbilderback wrote:How do you know how much money you are going to make from 20-65 to be taxed in comparison to what you make 18-20? Considering how finances change in those years, you'd still have to be a flaming moron not to go tax free. I think you'd have too many people not paying taxes.
Especially if you were do for a large inhertance from your kin. You would be stupid not to do the deed and lay back and wait for all that tax free money to roll in.
Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:46 pm
by TPRJones
TheCatt wrote:TPRJones wrote:Once the two years is up (or more if they reinlist), they become a citizen. They can vote, they can hold office, and they don't pay taxes anymore.
Are you sure they don't pay taxes in ST?
Nope, not sure. It's never specified as I recall.
I do remember that those who did not earn their citizenship are called "taxpayers". That doesn't neccissarly mean that citizens don't pay taxes, but I like the idea.
One of the problems with assuming most would do it is that you are looking at your current taxes and thinking "hell yeah!" Keep in mind that in the book (and, I hope, in America II) taxes are a very very tiny amount compared to what you pay now.