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Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:00 pm
by GORDON
When i play, TYPICALLY i finish my shoes first. But i think our stacked items..... a couple WOAs for AP peeps, and/or Frozen Mallets for the AD peeps, should be the 4th-ish item you get. That's solidly into the mid game, when peeps are hunting in packs and the AOE are overlapping.
I also think this should be mandatory.
That's my opinion.
Edited By GORDON on 1345762875
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:44 pm
by Cakedaddy
I normally don't finish my shoes first. I buy basic boots early, but don't finish till after starting other items. Early game, I don't typically plan to engage the enemy and chase, so don't need the speed. I buy stuff that will help me farm.
But, I guess, technically, they are finished before any other major item. But I'll have a good start on my lantern and phanton dancer (or AP stuff) before finishing them.
I'll look at moving WOA up earlier.
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:54 pm
by GORDON
The way I figger, when we stack them it is like everyone getting an extra item for free. Instead of 20% Spell Vamp, we are getting 40% for the same price. That is an advantage and it should not be too hard to get into the habit of automatically doing that.
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:48 pm
by Cakedaddy
The only downside is that I'm not finishing a 4th item until way late in the game. My buy order for Veigar is:
Boots
Deathfire
Tome
Deathcap
Then I start lichebane, but it's not often for it to never get finished. Not sure how many games WOA would get finished either. Moving it third means I'm giving up 140 AP. Not sure 20% spell vamp would counter that. Reason being, if I'm getting targeted, I'm probably going to die not fighting. I burst and run. Burst and run. If they tackle me, I'm going to die very quickly with no chance to really vamp any spells. Granted, if I'm low in health and can burst an enemy, I'll get a good heal on. But honestly, if I'm low on health, I REALLY avoid the enemy. Thus my low death scores lately. I don't always totally leave. But, I'm very cautious and far away from them. I'll join in if the team is beating someone up and I can sneak in a spell and fall right back again. So really, I'm not sure I'll benefit from the spell vamp very much and I'll be giving up a decent amount of AP damage.
I'm almost thinking that much like the AD carry, our AP nuker should concentrate on doing his job, and not mixing in defense/support. I wouldn't want my AD carry getting mallet (unless it was an integral part of his build). That should be done by the hybrid or support champs. Same might be said about WOA. 4th item for Veigar, I'm on board with that. Lichebane is cool with its AP bonus and the basic attack bonus. Was watching a stream of a player using it and he was able to do good damage to turrets because of it. Plus, a basic attack of 900+ late game from Veigar is huge. So, again, I'd be giving up a bunch of damage going with WOA instead of LB. But, I'm a team player. And if the team thinks I should be getting WOA, then I will. But I like it more as my last item, which 95% of the time would never get built.
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:35 pm
by GORDON
I hear what you're saying, and the only thing I would add is that WOA is, I believe, a lot cheaper than Deathcap, and you'd have it 5 minutes sooner.
I think maybe we shouldn't worry about stacking on TT, just SR. That way our buffs are getting spread over 5 peeps instead of 3, and it is more valuable overall.
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:55 am
by Cakedaddy
Yes, it's about 1k cheaper. But 50 AP and 20% vamp compared to 150 AP + 30% of AP? That's a lot to give up as Veigar.
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:39 pm
by GORDON
Feasibly even champs like Gangplank and Nasus would benefit from carrying a WOA, since some of their abilities are AP modified.
Nasus prolly better than GP... like Veigar, GP (usually) needs to be a hard hitting cannon. Nasus is more supporty.
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:55 pm
by Cakedaddy
That's what I was saying above. These items might be a better fit on support champs.
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:24 pm
by Stranger
Why would a support get a WOtA when they don't need AP or spellvamp? The point of WOtA is for two AP champs to boost each others stats when they are together. I like to get Zeke's cause it gives me cooldown reduction and health, (two important needs for a support) and it give the most important player on the team (AD carry) excellent boosts. Not to mention everybody does autoattacks and its cheaper. I like WOtA and think its an excellent item, but i just don't see the point of a support getting it.
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:34 pm
by Cakedaddy
Because if two non-carry champs have it, then they are doubling up on the spell vamp for champs that are AP. If we have an AP heavy team, then WOA would be a big help to all of them running around being AP'y. Kennen, Sej, Veigar, Singed and Vayne. That's a lot of AP. If Singed and Sej both have WOA Kennen would benefit a lot. The rest of the team would benefit decently. Have your AD boosts as well for Vayne.
Not saying this is ideal. Just something to consider.
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:00 pm
by TPRJones
For some champs, it would be basically sacrificing an item to give your teammate a sometimes 20% boost. Not worth it unless the champ can also make decent use of it directly.
If it were always boosting or if it stacked more than twice then it might be worth it on everyone.
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:27 pm
by Cakedaddy
Well, support champs are SUPPOSED to be buying items that help their teammates, sometimes more than themselves. Trying to figure out if WOA fits in this group and who should buy it. At least that's my take here.
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:41 pm
by GORDON
"Combat AP" champs like Singed are goog to carry the WOA, for the Spell Vamp, since Singed is likely to be actively giving and taking damage, and can use the healing.
Veigar... maybe not so much... since if he starts taking damage, he is probably dead even with 20% (or 40, stacked) Spell Vamp. Possibly. But it would still probably be better if 2 people NEAR Veigar were stacking WOA and giving him 40% spell vamp, while still carrying other high AP items.