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Innocent and given a reward for one goblin killed.

I don't know the laws in Vegas, but in Michigan, you can only use deadly force if someone is about to die or be raped. You can't use deadly force if they are just stealing your cigarettes.

I'd want him to be found innocent. But I'd have to declare him guilty.

Cakedaddy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:52 pm I don't know the laws in Vegas, but in Michigan, you can only use deadly force if someone is about to die or be raped. You can't use deadly force if they are just stealing your cigarettes.

I'd want him to be found innocent. But I'd have to declare him guilty.

This is a very fair and logical response. No snark. However, here's my problem with it: The store owner isn't a cop. He is just a civilian who is defending himself. When the guy comes over the counter how in the hell is the store owner supposed to know his intentions or if he's armed? It's fair to hold cops to that standard because they get training, have tools, and sign up to be in those situations. A store owner has none of those things.

I see it as:
Counter between them and no weapons = Deadly force not an option.
Bad guy comes over the counter = Act first or potentially die.

At some point we have to draw a line where victims' rights > criminals' rights. We need to stop acting like store owners should have the same behavior as a trained cop. We also need to stop thinking criminals have ANY right to break the law safely.

No idea if that criminal lived or died, but his failure to simply obey the law probably cost him his life and probably destroyed the life of the store owner. Even if he's found innocent, he still took a life and will probably have trauma over it forever.

Every moment of that video is avoided if the bad guy simply pays for what he wants and doesn't break the law.

In other related news, here's a guy who WILL be found innocent:

Based on the video above, I'd say innocent. Assuming he stopped stabbing at that point. If he kept going for the kill, I'd understand it, but he'd probably be guilty of something. Hopefully just 'disturbing the peace'

Leisher wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:20 pm When the guy comes over the counter how in the hell is the store owner supposed to know his intentions or if he's armed?

The perp never made a move towards the guy. Immediately started grabbing stuff from the shelf. Wasn't even looking at the clerk. The clerk charged him and attacked. The perp had no visible weapon. Was not threatening the owner, etc. I'm not saying I agree with the law. I'm just saying the clerk wasn't allowed to use deadly force in this instance.

Also, all that stuff I said above was from my concealed carry class. The law is "to prevent the death or great bodily harm or rape of someone". The clerk may not know that because he never went to any classes that taught it. But ignorance of the law will never get you off.

I feel bad for the guy, but you can't kill someone because they are stealing your cigarettes.

Cakedaddy wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:34 pm

Leisher wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:20 pm When the guy comes over the counter how in the hell is the store owner supposed to know his intentions or if he's armed?

The perp never made a move towards the guy. Immediately started grabbing stuff from the shelf. Wasn't even looking at the clerk. The clerk charged him and attacked. The perp had no visible weapon. Was not threatening the owner, etc. I'm not saying I agree with the law. I'm just saying the clerk wasn't allowed to use deadly force in this instance.

Also, all that stuff I said above was from my concealed carry class. The law is "to prevent the death or great bodily harm or rape of someone". The clerk may not know that because he never went to any classes that taught it. But ignorance of the law will never get you off.

I feel bad for the guy, but you can't kill someone because they are stealing your cigarettes.

Again, I get all of that and agree, but he's a store owner not a cop. The criminal made this entire situation happen, not the store owner.

We need to stop pretending people deserve rights when they choose to break the law in violent ways or even implied violence. And yes, robbing a store with the owner/worker present, armed or not, is a violent crime.

Him not being a cop is irrelevant. He's also not a priest! Neither fact is relevant.

I disagree that jumping a counter, grabbing cigarettes and leaving is a violent crime. The thief was counting on the general rule that employees are not to intervene in a robbery. I see nothing in that video that put the clerk in any danger. The other thief grabbed something, then ran.

I really hope there are no charges brought against him, because ya, fuck thieves. But from what I know of the law, he'll be charged with stuff. Hopefully his lawyer can convince the judge/jury that he was justified to use deadly force based on some evidence not evident in the video.

It's a thief, being aggressive. This wasn't a quiet burglary of a parked car, this was a confrontational crime and that guy could have been the owner of the store, and it was his home. The clerk had no idea what the thief would do when he got done getting his fave cigarette brand off the shelf, maybe his next move was male rape or murder or something. Clerk doesn't know. Kill the fucker. Twice, if you can.