Immigration

[TPRJones]

We make exceptions on freedom all the time.

I'll still give you the freedom argument because I think this quoted statement is shameful.

Not on you. On all of us.

[Troy]

TPR up in here like

[TPRJones]

Heh.

I should stipulate that I'm at base an anarchist, so I'm all about having absurdly high levels of freedom. Or more accurately stated, I hold that any government action that impedes individual freedoms must only be used to address a clear and present danger that has been overwhelmingly proven, and must only last for as long as the danger is present. That is not the standard we use.

[Malcolm]

Dangerous Iranian terrorists allowed to enter country.

An Iranian infant in need of life-saving heart surgery arrived Tuesday at a Portland hospital with her family after being temporarily banned from coming to the U.S. by President Donald Trump's immigration orders.

Iranian doctors told the child's parents weeks ago that she needed at least one urgent surgery to correct serious heart defects, or she will die, according to her uncle, Samad Taghizadeh, a U.S. citizen who lives in Portland.

The family previously had an appointment in Dubai to get a tourist visa. But it was abruptly canceled after Trump announced his executive order banning the entry of people from seven countries with Muslim majorities. The girl and her parents had to return to Iran.

A Seattle judge issued a temporary restraining order on the ban the same day a waiver was granted for the baby.

I'm sure the Ayatollah himself is personally funding research to pair off people with the same genetic defects so they can send their children to western countries, stuffed full of explosives.

[Leisher]

One doesn't go out and "get married" for one night the same way one goes out and gets blitzed or smokes an entire Cuban tobacco harvest.

Danny Bonaduce did and it lasted 13 years or some shit. Hell, there's a fucking reality show where people meet and get married the same day.

Is the age of sexual consent a good example? How about how long it takes to get an education? Our society has so many bullshit deadlines.

I'll still give you the freedom argument because I think this quoted statement is shameful.

Not on you. On all of us.

Here's opening a can of worms... Can there truly be total freedom in any civilization?

[Malcolm]

Danny Bonaduce did and it lasted 13 years or some shit.

Every now and again, someone's dumb enough to do that. But it's not as popular as binge drinking.

Can there truly be total freedom in any civilization?

If you're prepared for lots of conflict, yes.

[GORDON]

Here's opening a can of worms... Can there truly be total freedom in any civilization?

I've been pondering that as soon as we perfect perfect mind reading, only then will we be able to stop crime and terrorism and have perfect social justice. I'm not sure if that gives the right or left wingers bigger boners. And I'm not sure if that is any kind of freedom... but it will be defined as such, because we won't be expected to have any expectation of privacy once our brainwaves leave our skull.

[TPRJones]

Can there truly be total freedom in any civilization?

If you're prepared for lots of conflict, yes.

Yes. But only in a post-scarcity economy that has no limit to the amount of power or resources available to everyone. That takes away most reasons for conflict, but of course there would still be conflict. But conflict is hard to pull off when it's their unlimited offense against your unlimited defenses, and material costs are inconsequential. That's not a war, that's just a messy game.

mind reading

Oh, hell no. Mindreading is the antithesis of freedom. As you indicate in your last sentence it would lead to a tyranny so complete that even ones thoughts will be controlled.

[GORDON]

Yep. And unless we all put on magneto helmets, everyone will be doing it all the time.

[Troy]

I sleep in mine. Just in case.

[Malcolm]

I sleep in mine. Just in case.

Motherfuckers that try to invade my head would very shortly retreat, demolish the bridge that led them there, and burn their maps. Bring it.

[GORDON]

But all ha ha aside, we're always going to have crazies, and no matter what you do there are always going to be more terrorists, and only one of two things will stop it: every human is permanently assigned to monitor another human 24/7, or mind reading.

[Malcolm]

I don't trade in perfect systems, only fault tolerant ones where I max tolerance and min fault.

[TPRJones]

...only one of two things will stop it...

Both of those things are worse than having random children blown up by terrorists every so often.

The truth is you are nearly four times more likely to be struck by lightening than to die from a terrorist attack. The danger of terrorism isn't the terrorists, it's our response to it that jettisons freedom in exchange for ... well, for nothing, because the security that is supposed to buy never works.

[Vince]

Here's opening a can of worms... Can there truly be total freedom in any civilization?

In my mind, total freedom is anarchy. I think we can have total liberty, though. And I actually believe that civilization is required for liberty. I forget which of our founding fathers said something along the lines of, the only valid purpose of government is to safeguard our liberties. Or something along those lines.

[TPRJones]

A nice sentiment, but somewhat equivalent to claiming that "the only valid purpose of cats is to guard rats from harm."

[Malcolm]

The Dipshit Drumpf method of illegal immigrant control:

“You know the illegals,” Mr. Drumpf told them. “You have the power. The federal government can never be that precise, but you’re in the neighborhoods. You know the bad ones. You know the good ones. I want you to turn in the bad ones.”

Yeah you know, the goods ones that don't report you when you pull them over for broken tail lights or "smelling of marijuana" and then shoot them. Or the other good ones that flip you a cool benjamin so you look the other way and don't kick them out of the country.

[GORDON]

The busdweiser thread is going off the rails with immigration talk, with this perfectly cromulent immigration thread right here. I started typing this ther... i stopped and will put it here.

____

I remember when economic refugees (not allowed) were floating in from Haiti, and Bill Clinton threw them in Gitmo until such a time as they could be shipped back to Haiti. And they were. I was there. But that was awesome because it was Bill Clinton.

Aren't illegals from Mexico economic refugees? Just curious. I realize this doesn't really apply to the general (not general) Muslim ban, but immigration is immigration and this counts.

[GORDON]

Wait.... they were fine with the Haitians being sent back because they were black, right?

[GORDON]

.... and mexicans are a good source of slave labor, and muslims will kill you if you offend them, which is why they always say, "This is just going to make more terrorists."

I think it is becoming clear.