Immigration

[Malcolm]

Are you really arguing vocabulary? You're saying "a 90-day waiting period" is not equivalent to a BAN on immigration from those joints for 90 days? Isn't a 3-day waiting period for a gun effectively a ban on buying one inside of 72 hours?

[Vince]

Are you really arguing vocabulary? You're saying "a 90-day waiting period" is not equivalent to a BAN on immigration from those joints for 90 days? Isn't a 3-day waiting period for a gun effectively a ban on buying one inside of 72 hours?

Again, show me where the press refers to the gun buying waiting period as a ban.

[Malcolm]

If your main complaint is that "ban" was used where "suspension" should have been, then you've picked quite the time to harp on journalistic sensationalism. But let's go down that extremely literal path. In terms of law, "ban" has a specific meaning going back centuries.

BAN, A proclamation, or public notice any summons or edict by which a thing is forbidden or commanded. Vide Bans of Matrimony; Proclamation; Cowell's Interp.

Nowhere does it imply a ban is inherently permanent, nor does it say that applying a time limit to a ban makes it something else. Back in the days of antiquity, "exile" could mean "for a little while until the king isn't as pissed" or "permanently, don't ever come back or we'll kill you."

[TPRJones]

Calling this a ban is political advocacy among the press. It is a delay.

Really, being trapped in a foreign country where you may or may not have any place to stay or any overseas access to your funds for 90 days is never any sort of awful experience, it's just a little delay. No big deal. Maybe you might have to sleep on the street and beg for food and hope you don't get tossed in prison for begging, but no worries, you'll be able to go back home in 90 days.

There's a half-million green card holders out there effected by this. That means it's likely that somewhere out there is a story like this: Imagine a 60 year old man that has lived in the U.S. since he was 20 and made the mistake of traveling back to Iran to bury his mother. She was his last surviving relative there. Now he's stuck in a country he hasn't been in in 40 years and knows almost nothing about because it's completely changed several times over in the intervening four decades. He's already been fired from his job because he missed work more than two days in a row, and if he doesn't find a way to pay rent on his apartment from halfway across the world he's going to lose his apartment and everything in it well before he comes home. He's got $20 left in his pocket to survive for the next 85 days. But no worries, it's just a delay.

[Vince]

Calling this a ban is political advocacy among the press. It is a delay.

Really, being trapped in a foreign country where you may or may not have any place to stay or any overseas access to your funds for 90 days is never any sort of awful experience, it's just a little delay. No big deal. Maybe you might have to sleep on the street and beg for food and hope you don't get tossed in prison for begging, but no worries, you'll be able to go back home in 90 days.

There's a half-million green card holders out there effected by this. That means it's likely that somewhere out there is a story like this: Imagine a 60 year old man that has lived in the U.S. since he was 20 and made the mistake of traveling back to Iran to bury his mother. She was his last surviving relative there. Now he's stuck in a country he hasn't been in in 40 years and knows almost nothing about because it's completely changed several times over in the intervening four decades. He's already been fired from his job because he missed work more than two days in a row, and if he doesn't find a way to pay rent on his apartment from halfway across the world he's going to lose his apartment and everything in it well before he comes home. He's got $20 left in his pocket to survive for the next 85 days. But no worries, it's just a delay.

First, I'm not arguing that this would really suck for someone impacted. I'm arguing that it is NOT a ban and the press should not be describing it as such. Second, the EO itself allows a a remedy for situations like you describe.

I am by no stretch a Trump fan. Didn't vote for him in either the primary or the general. This histrionics by the press is making him immune to real criticism. No one will be paying attention to them when he really does step over the line.

[Malcolm]

Why is it not a ban, aside from your personal interpretation of "a X-day suspension is a waiting period and not a ban?" It is a legal (what the courts allowed) prohibition which by definition is a ban. Are you saying that getting your license revoked isn't technically revocation because you can get it back after 90 days, it's just a waiting period until you can reapply?

Obama is capable of raping a 6 month old baby in the next 90 days as well. Doesn't make it responsible to report that.

I don't seem to recall him campaigning on that platform nor screaming at the top of his lungs that it must be done until "we can figure out what the hell is going on."

[TPRJones]

I am by no stretch a Trump fan.

I get that. But if you are determined to defend the EO then I'll be happy to keep pointing out how shitty it is.

Second, the EO itself allows a a remedy for situations like you describe.

I certainly can't find anything like that. The closest I can see is Sec 3g and that only applies to individuals that are important to national security, not just any person that has lived here almost their entire lives and suddenly had their lives potentially destroyed for no good reason.

[Malcolm]

I recall people claiming that Obama brought "amateur hour to the White House." Wtf is Drumpf doing?

[TPRJones]

He's being criminally negligent with his power, in my opinion.

At a minimum there should be something in that EO about people who have lived here for more than 10 years or the spouse or children of U.S. citizens not being included in the ban.

[TheCatt]

Literally, the first definition and example from the dictionary:

ban1
ban/Submit
verb
1.
officially or legally prohibit.
"he was banned from driving for a year"

They have been banned, the end.

[Vince]

I certainly can't find anything like that. The closest I can see is Sec 3g and that only applies to individuals that are important to national security, not just any person that has lived here almost their entire lives and suddenly had their lives potentially destroyed for no good reason.

(e) Notwithstanding the temporary suspension imposed pursuant to subsection (a) of this section, the Secretaries of State and Homeland Security may jointly determine to admit individuals to the United States as refugees on a case-by-case basis, in their discretion, but only so long as they determine that the admission of such individuals as refugees is in the national interest -- including when the person is a religious minority in his country of nationality facing religious persecution, when admitting the person would enable the United States to conform its conduct to a preexisting international agreement, or when the person is already in transit and denying admission would cause undue hardship -- and it would not pose a risk to the security or welfare of the United States.

[Vince]

Literally, the first definition and example from the dictionary:

ban1
ban/Submit
verb
1.
officially or legally prohibit.
"he was banned from driving for a year"

They have been banned, the end.

Literally, the first definition from the dictionary:

Definition of delay
1
a : the act of postponing, hindering, or causing something to occur more slowly than normal : the state of being delayed <get started without delay>
b : an instance of being delayed <apologized for the delay> <a rain delay>

They've been delayed. This is the delay end. Not the banned end. You would have to lock the thread after you post for it to be the banned end.

[Malcolm]

You have to be shitting me.

Synonyms for ban:
boycott
censorship
embargo
injunction
prohibition
refusal
restriction
interdiction
limitation
proscription
stoppage
suppression

None of these things are inherently permanent. None. They can all be brought to an end. Boycotts end, ask the Montgomery bus drivers. Work stoppages end. Ask the air traffic controllers. Limitations end. Ask the Americans that got tossed in internment camps in this country during WWII. Embargoes end. Ask Cuba.

You will also notice synonyms for "delay" include "stoppage." A delay is a special case of a ban where you know in advance it's going to be finite. Delaying you from buying a gun by waiting a certain amount of time for it amounts to a ban on buying guns in that time frame. It's logically the same goddamned thing.

[TPRJones]

I certainly can't find anything like that.

(e)...

No, that's the part about refugees. That does nothing for permanent residents or other long term visa holders.

[Vince]

I certainly can't find anything like that.

(e)...

No, that's the part about refugees. That does nothing for permanent residents or other long term visa holders.

Ah... I see that.

[TheCatt]

[Leisher]

2) Run Microsoft

Badly...

My problem isn't immigration. My problem is who is immigrating, how they're immigrating, and what they're doing once they arrive.

We don't need unskilled people who refuse to learn our language or culture. We don't need people who think it's fine to rape women or who think Shariah law should be the law of the land here. We don't need people who come here illegally because if they don't respect that law, what does it say about their likeliness to break other laws?

Why is it racist to simply say, "Please apply for citizenship through the correct channels"?

I'm sure we've all seen this video as it's 6 years old, and I'm sure there are arguments against it that have some merit. (Not just the typical, but..."THE CHILDREN!!!!!!") However, his logic isn't wrong. Shouldn't the goal be to make every place a good place to live rather than immigrating people all over?

[TPRJones]

That video is nicely nicely, but it's making a point against a straw man position. Immigration has never been about helping the people of the world. It's not even about helping the immigrants. It's mainly about - and has always been mainly about ever since the first new world colonies were founded - making the U.S. better and more robust by siphoning the most dedicated and driven of people out of the rest of the world and letting them come here to build our economy. That's why there should always be some strong but surmountable barriers to immigration; it should be hard, because then only those who work hard at it will succeed. But if we make it impossible and cut off the flow we will stagnate.

[Leisher]

It's mainly about - and has always been mainly about ever since the first new world colonies were founded - making the U.S. better and more robust by siphoning the most dedicated and driven of people out of the rest of the world and letting them come here to build our economy.

Which is something he points out when he says the immigrants we take are usually the best "whatever country" has to offer. The ones who can afford to immigrate, have the opportunity, or are smart/driven enough.

That's why there should always be some strong but surmountable barriers to immigration; it should be hard, because then only those who work hard at it will succeed.

It would be impossible to agree more, which is why I'm very much against illegal immigration. We'll take you, but learn how to read the forms and then fill them out!

But if we make it impossible and cut off the flow we will stagnate.

Yep.

I don't think the video is anti-immigration (and I'll withhold judgment on what Trump's doing), but more "why the rest of the world shouldn't see running here as a solution".

You could eliminate countries and make it about corporations and you get the same thing. If one company dominated all the good workers, nothing good would come from that.

[TheCatt]

2) Run Microsoft

Badly...

The market disagrees.

My problem isn't immigration. My problem is who is immigrating, how they're immigrating, and what they're doing once they arrive.

We don't need unskilled people who refuse to learn our language or culture. We don't need people who think it's fine to rape women or who think Shariah law should be the law of the land here. We don't need people who come here illegally because if they don't respect that law, what does it say about their likeliness to break other laws?

In my mind, a lot of this has to do with the rate/flow of immigration. Currently, about 15% of Americans are non-native born, which, I believe, is a record for the past 100 yeasr. On the surface that is fine, but it really removes incentives towards cultural normalization and, imho, creates a bunch of strife.