The [s]First[/s] Only Trump term...so far

[Vince]

I will be surprised if his TV news surrogates last more than a year each. Kelly Ann Conway was already looking a bit shaky. Huckaby's kid was looking kind of lost as well. They are being thrown in shit situations and Trump isn't involved at all in crafting a central message. All his people are just reacting to the latest tweet he's put out with no or little guidance. I give Spicer a little longer, but less than 2 years. I don't recall any member of congress this week really supporting Trump on the wire tap tweet other than to say they would look let their process run its course. Trump won't run for re-election. The trappings of power are nothing for a billionaire, and this isn't fun anymore.

[GORDON]

I love how he says exactly when he thinks, all the time.

I'm not sure he has yet. (emphasis added)

Tiny screen old eyes phone typing autofinish all suck.

[Leisher]

No, he's still completely off base because it is illegal for the President to have ordered a wiretap, no judge would sign off on that, and even asking for it could get have easily gotten him impeached.

I laughed. Obama can order airstrikes murdering American citizens, which is highly illegal, but he can't order a wiretap or we'd impeach him? You are 100% correct if our government worked as intended.

That and there hasn't been even a tiny whiff of any sort of evidence; contrary to popular belief repeating over and over something someone pulled out of their ass isn't evidence. The article you linked agrees with this stance 100%.

Well you say that, but the article points out how several people in Trump's camp WERE wiretapped and Obama's administration knew about it. There's also allegations they spied on Congressmen and journalists. So yeah, Trumps really stretching the truth to say Obama wire tapped him, huh? Hey remember when the IRS was used by Obama's administration to attack conservative groups? Yep. Obama was a fucking saint and nothing his administration did was remotely illegal...

If you choose to reinterpret Trump to mean that "Obama's administration" (i.e. people working for the government when Obama was President) and not Obama personally then yes, they probably spied on him.

Well, you're making the assumption that when Trump says "Obama" he doesn't mean "Obama's administration". You think he wasn't aware that the IRS was targeting conservatives, that his folks were spying on journalists or Congressmen, that he was killing American civilians in drone strikes, etc.? Granted, not thinking that would be acceptable considering about 8 scandals in a row his publicly stated stance was, "I found out about it watching TV like you."

But if there were any evidence that Obama personally ordered it - or even suggested it - then he'd be under investigation and perhaps even incarcerated at this time.

I laughed again. C'mon! You cannot possibly take this Utopian stance after seeing what has gone on the last 8 years. Obama could have murdered children on live TV and his supporters would have explained that he was really killing the anti-Christ and the other kids were acceptable casualties.

The government working as intended, you're right, but it is not and has not for some time.

If your stance is that you can't read the words the President uses and expect them to mean what he says, then all I can say is it's sad that this is where we are now. There was a time when the ability to communicate clearly and meaningfully was something that was generally considered important in the leader of the free world.

Ok, you're clearly just trolling me.

[Vince]

Well, you're making the assumption that when Trump says "Obama" he doesn't mean "Obama's administration". You think he wasn't aware that the IRS was targeting conservatives, that his folks were spying on journalists or Congressmen, that he was killing American civilians in drone strikes, etc.? Granted, not thinking that would be acceptable considering about 8 scandals in a row his publicly stated stance was, "I found out about it watching TV like you."

I could give you this if not for this tweet...

How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!

This was targeting the individual rather than the administration.

I've been saying for a while, Trump is clever. Not smart. Two different things. He isn't playing 3 dimensional chess. He's watching TV and tweeting about it.

[Leisher]

Well, you're making the assumption that when Trump says "Obama" he doesn't mean "Obama's administration". You think he wasn't aware that the IRS was targeting conservatives, that his folks were spying on journalists or Congressmen, that he was killing American civilians in drone strikes, etc.? Granted, not thinking that would be acceptable considering about 8 scandals in a row his publicly stated stance was, "I found out about it watching TV like you."

I could give you this if not for this tweet...

How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!

This was targeting the individual rather than the administration.

I've been saying for a while, Trump is clever. Not smart. Two different things. He isn't playing 3 dimensional chess. He's watching TV and tweeting about it.

1. There are a lot of things he now sees that we never will. We're making a huge assumption thinking we have all the information. For all we know he's spilling secret information, but can't prove it by showing a document he saw because it's secret information. He comes off as someone who would do something like that.
2. Much to TPR's chagrin, he could simply be stating "Obama" when referring to the entire administration. It could be intentional, it could be ignorance, it could be an assumption.

Also, I would dispute your statement at the end. I think Trump is smart, not clever. End of the day, he's a fucking billionaire. The man has some brains. Daddy's money or not he's not sitting on it. However, the way he handles himself shows he isn't clever. He doesn't think before he speaks. He's not the type to get you into a trap using his words.

[Vince]

1. There are a lot of things he now sees that we never will. We're making a huge assumption thinking we have all the information. For all we know he's spilling secret information, but can't prove it by showing a document he saw because it's secret information. He comes off as someone who would do something like that.

He's President. By releasing the FISA warrant he would be declassifying it and it's within his power to do so. I'm not able to square how the warrant can be baseless AND it would jeopardize national security to declassify it. At this point, no one will even say he's getting his information from viewing the FISA warrant. Based on the evidence, it is more likely at this point that his source was Brietbart news the Mark Levin Show rather than any classified and privileged intelligence reports.

[Troy]

Seen this silliness being discussed, will devote as few words as possible. I agree with comments above, Trump made it up. Pulled it out of his ass after reading some innuendo on Breibart while getting his hair sprayed on one morning.

I thought this was a pretty well known tactic of his. I remember stories of his business dealings during election season. You accuse him of something bad. He denies, and deflects by coming back over the top with something so ridiculous, even a simple "no" doesn't seem sufficient. Leads you down that rabbit hole.

Fuck off Trump.

[Leisher]

He's President. By releasing the FISA warrant he would be declassifying it and it's within his power to do so. I'm not able to square how the warrant can be baseless AND it would jeopardize national security to declassify it. At this point, no one will even say he's getting his information from viewing the FISA warrant. Based on the evidence, it is more likely at this point that his source was Brietbart news the Mark Levin Show rather than any classified and privileged intelligence reports.

President does not equal king or dictator. He doesn't have power to declassify things willy nilly...at least not everything. For all we know he read a brief that shows every party/president does this, but he's the one non-career politician, so he overreacted (or acted normally?).

I agree with comments above, Trump made it up. Pulled it out of his ass after reading some innuendo on Breibart while getting his hair sprayed on one morning.

So even though it's fact that Obama's administration was spying on people in Trump's camp, journalists, and Congressman, Trump's the asshole for suggesting Obama might have had a hand in it?

Fair enough. It amazes me how quickly people forget the sins of the previous guy as soon as the new guy takes office.

I thought this was a pretty well known tactic of his. I remember stories of his business dealings during election season. You accuse him of something bad. He denies, and deflects by coming back over the top with something so ridiculous, even a simple "no" doesn't seem sufficient. Leads you down that rabbit hole.

Fuck off Trump.

I don't even disagree with a single part of this, but for fuck's sake, let's not pretend Obama was fucking Jesus and never did shit wrong. Some historians will tell you Hitler didn't technically sign any orders about exterminating Jews, but we all know he was involved.

[Troy]

I don't even disagree with a single part of this, but for fuck's sake, let's not pretend Obama was fucking Jesus and never did shit wrong. Some historians will tell you Hitler didn't technically sign any orders about exterminating Jews, but we all know he was involved.

I don't think anyone is pretending that Obama was Jesus. He caught tons of flack during his time in office. See - the 76 page long thread on this board. But he also isn't the President anymore.

Trump's new job definitely comes with perks, but it also puts you naked clinging to a northern exposure. When HE does dumb shit he's out there on his own. He shouldn't point fingers at past presidents without evidence or pretend he is still campaigning and scream EMAILS to deflect policy questions.

Well I guess he can, but only Breibart commentators end up happy about it.

[Leisher]

Let me be clear about something: I'm not a Trump defender. I didn't vote for him. I don't like him. I didn't think he was a good person when I watched The Apprentice way back when. (I'd fuck the shit out of his daughter though.) I think he displays his ass on a day to day basis and it's an embarrassment. I think his only good qualities are that he's a trust fund kid who actually does something with his money, and that his mere existence seems to be the bane of Malcolm.

That being said, Obama was as big a joke as Trump. The difference between the two is Obama was charismatic and went out of his way to kiss your ass. Thus, people forgave his MASSIVE faults and shitty policies. People pretend he was such a great president despite all evidence proving he sucked. Was he the worst? No, but he wasn't better than W (and W wasn't better than him).

Shit like people attacking him for the Obama wiretapped me thing just irks me. He's being openly mocked and being called an out and out liar. This is despite the fact that Obama and his cronies DID spy on Trump's associates. They DID spy on journalists. They DID spy on Congress. But when Trump suggests they spied on him people get outraged.

Meanwhile Trump had cronies associated with Russia. Nothing connecting him, but the same folks who say Trump just can't accuse Obama think it's a foregone conclusion that Trump is in bed with Russia and won the election that way.

It's madness.

Trump is a dick and when he displays his dickishness, he needs to be called on it, but for fuck's sake let's keep our criticism in context. If Obama was spying on all these other folks, including Trump associates, why are we acting like Trump accusing Obama of spying on him is like him saying he talks to God daily? Logically, what he said isn't exactly a huge leap considering the facts, so why are we pretending like it is?

[Malcolm]

When Drumpf presents me with a "fact" I get worried in the same way I would if a professional counterfeiter gave me a $100 bank note.

[Leisher]

It just really pisses me off how we play this game with politicians.

Obama says there are 57 states. The MSM: "Oh, he didn't mean it! No big deal!"
Johnson isn't sure where Aleppo is...The MSM: "See? This man is unfit to be president!"

Obama is a community organizer and a first term senator: "Vastly qualified to be president."
Palin is the sitting governor of Alaska: "Not qualified to be vice president."

Hell, look at how Quayle and Biden were handled. One was seen as a complete moron with no business in the office and the other was seen as a lovable dope. Both idiots, but because one leans left, it's ok.

Trump is an arrogant, sack of shit, with no experience and no business in the presidency, but it still amazes me that his opponent was an even worse human being who lied, broke federal laws, and got people killed. Yet half of the country is openly mocked all the time for not pretending that isn't true.

[Leisher]

I apologize. I don't know why I'm ranting today. Slowest day I've had at work in a while and lack of sleep I guess.

[Vince]

He's President. By releasing the FISA warrant he would be declassifying it and it's within his power to do so. I'm not able to square how the warrant can be baseless AND it would jeopardize national security to declassify it. At this point, no one will even say he's getting his information from viewing the FISA warrant. Based on the evidence, it is more likely at this point that his source was Brietbart news the Mark Levin Show rather than any classified and privileged intelligence reports.

President does not equal king or dictator. He doesn't have power to declassify things willy nilly...at least not everything. For all we know he read a brief that shows every party/president does this, but he's the one non-career politician, so he overreacted (or acted normally?).

Actually, he does have the power to declassify things willy nilly. Buck Sexton, former CIA analyst was talking about this earlier this week. The NSA, FBI, CIA and HSA all report to the President. That's pretty much every agency that can classify material. They all report to the President. If he says something is to be declassified they can all state their case as to why they disagree, but it's his call.

I agree about the double standard. Like I said, I wouldn't put any of this past Obama. CIA's Clapper was being asked about whether or not he'd seen anything about these taps and I couldn't believe they'd ask the guy that perjured himself about collecting data on American citizens was being asked this. The press is obviously biased against him.

I'm not mad that Trump went after Obama. I'm mad that he did it in a way that is neither intelligent nor clever. If he has the documentation (which I don't think he has) then release it. If you're using a Breitbart story, don't reference the Breitbart story. Instead reference the NY Times' story that talked about leaks on the wiretap. Make the NY Times either denounce their story or admit that they ran a story stating that Obama did what Trump stated they did. We all know the press is biased against Trump. And had we been given a hypothetical before Trump tweeted on what the press would do if he said what he said, we knew that is would go the way it's gone. Blame the press for being biased, but blame Trump for being stupid. He seriously has some sort of condition with this compulsive tweeting. His staff needs to confiscate his phone on the weekends.

[Malcolm]

But when Drumpf suggests they spied on him people get outraged.

Yes, because he's intentionally twisting words in his insane tweet to make it look like the former prez was intentionally gunning specifically for his Almighty Orangeness.

How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!

That's a targeted accusation of one person saying another tapped his shit. He knew it was absolute bullshit but he also had something with enough truthiness in his back pocket to fire back with. You don't need to spy on Drumpf, just watch his twitter feed for all the intel you require. And ... sacred? The irony of him using that term to describe the election is over-the-top bad.

Yet half of the country is openly mocked all the time for not pretending that isn't true.

While the other half is busy jumping for joy they're cleaning house in DC by figuratively throwing a molotov, and is also seemingly proud of that fact they voted for someone that most of them would willingly describe as "an asshole."

but it still amazes me that his opponent was an even worse human being who lied, broke federal laws, and got people killed.

But Cheeto Xerxes doing all that his first few weeks in office is cool?

[TPRJones]

Leisher, if you are lumping me in with "people that defended Obama" then I can't imagine what board you've been posting on the past eight years but it wasn't this one.

Obama was an evil bastard. Trump is an evil retarded bastard. That's the only difference between them.

On the point of his accusation against Obama, it was very clear he meant Obama personally and that's enormously different from just saying the feds spied on him. One is an accusation of a massive violation and the other is a perfectly normal and likely justified investigation.

[GORDON]

Meh. I would lump the phrase "obama did it!" and "obama's administration did it!" in a bucket of things that mean the same things. He may not have personally given the order, but he damned well knew plenty of shady shit was going on. No moral difference.

[Vince]

On the point of his accusation against Obama, it was very clear he meant Obama personally and that's enormously different from just saying the feds spied on him. One is an accusation of a massive violation and the other is a perfectly normal and likely justified investigation.

Here's where it gets weird and is classic Trump thought... Trump works best (really only works) when he has a foil. It was demonstrated all through the election. He has to have someone to play off of. "Little Marco" and "Lyin' Ted" and "Crooked Hillary". If you look at when Trump was really in trouble during the election was when the "grab 'em by the pussy" tape came out and Hillary was smart enough to just fade away and not give Trump his foil. Comey saved his ass (intentionally or not) by bringing the investigation back into play. Then Trump was open to have his "Crooked Hillary" target whether she was out in the spotlight or not.

For weeks, Trump has been railing against Obama loyal elements within the intelligence community responsible for numerous leaks to the press. This hasn't worked for him at all because he works off of Saul Alinksy tactics.

“Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions.

This is the reason he's slapped Obama's face on the intelligence community here. So both sides are kind of right. Trump was talking about the intelligence community, but for his that will be synonymous with "Obama" because the intelligence community can't be isolated as a foil.

[GORDON]

I don't think anyone is pretending that Obama was Jesus. He caught tons of flack during his time in office. See - the 76 page long thread on this board. But he also isn't the President anymore.

I think this is why the divide isn't going to be healed without a lot of fire and blood, one way or another.

A reasonable person can completely agree with a person while not actually agreeing.

Someone said obama was as dirty as the rest, Troy "agreed" by stating that yes, obama caught a lot of flack. He didn't admit he agreed obama was dirty, he agreed that he understood a lot of people thought he was. Not the same thing.

I am not slamming, just observing human nature as an outsider. I don't care. They are all shit, they are all angels, one way or another it won't drive my kid to school for me.

[Leisher]

Leisher, if you are lumping me in with "people that defended Obama" then I can't imagine what board you've been posting on the past eight years but it wasn't this one.

I wasn't directly doing that, no. I was ranting against the "Everything this guy does in wrong and evil, and I'm just pretending my guy didn't do the same shit" crowd and you just happened to be in the discussion. I'm aware of where you stood on Barrack Hussein Obama.

Obama was an evil bastard. Trump is an evil retarded bastard. That's the only difference between them.

But see, you're kind of making my point. How retarded can a billionaire be? "Yeah, but it's his dad's money!" Fine, but he's spending it. He's losing it and making more. He's not a complete retard. Is he a social retard? Absolutely. Is he a financial retard? I'm thinking no. Meanwhile, the guy you didn't call a retard thinks socialism works, so...

I think I would have instead said: "Obama was a charming evil bastard. Trump is an arrogant evil bastard." Because that's the real difference.

On the point of his accusation against Obama, it was very clear he meant Obama personally and that's enormously different from just saying the feds spied on him. One is an accusation of a massive violation and the other is a perfectly normal and likely justified investigation.

I don't think it's that clear. As Vince says, Trump needs a foil. I legit do think he's simply aiming the gun at the top dog rather than the organization as a whole. That might make sense in the business world when you're a top dog and only deal with top dogs. Trump's just displaying, yet again, that's he's not a politician.

I think this is why the divide isn't going to be healed without a lot of fire and blood, one way or another.

A reasonable person can completely agree with a person while not actually agreeing.

Someone said obama was as dirty as the rest, Troy "agreed" by stating that yes, obama caught a lot of flack. He didn't admit he agreed obama was dirty, he agreed that he understood a lot of people thought he was. Not the same thing.

I am not slamming, just observing human nature as an outsider. I don't care. They are all shit, they are all angels, one way or another it won't drive my kid to school for me.

Fucking Amen.

Since I'm watching Game of Thrones right now I'll reference it. We are really just the peasants complaining in the streets about which king we like better. And ALL the kings are just fucking us in different ways.