do you have a severe allergy?

[Malcolm]

Oh, hey, look, cocaine use fell from 1980.

How'd crack do? If you want to equate success with sitting on one side of a partially filled balloon and making the air go elsewhere, then I guess it was successful.

They are about the fact that they flat out lie about drugs to scare kids into not using them.

Ah, zero tolerance for drugs. Because nothing says "let's confront this issue" like "don't think about it too hard."

More and more I'm seeing our culture become hostile to Christians and Christianity.

Hostile to an amalgamated, censored, and selective system of beliefs which refuses to let go of thousands of years of baggage? I can't imagine why.

[Leisher]

I've always disagreed with that attitude.

We will agree to disagree because I've always disagreed with yours.

and quite the contrary. I have seen plenty of things that suggest there isn't one.

To you because that's your prism and that's fine, but it doesn't make it more correct than my "prove it either way" stance or Vince's belief.

has nothing to do with any system of faith, or religion.

and calling a lack of belief in god a type of religious belief makes as much sense from that end as calling a lack of belief in the Bush-did-911 conspiracy as a religious belief.

So take out "religious", but it's still a belief. A belief based on looking at the universe from a human perspective. That perspective once believing the Earth was flat or that the sun revolved around the Earth, and so on. There is so much that we don't know and don't understand. So many things that can't be explained (yet). So many things that just happened to fall perfectly. I'm not saying any of that is proof of a higher power, but we can't disprove it (yet).

Maybe we're a result of Dr. Carol Marcus' genius? Maybe we're not even Earth Prime? Perhaps the Russian or vampire or superhero versions of us have also had this conversation on a message board or in person or via smoke signals?

[TPRJones]

So take out "religious", but it's still a belief. A belief based on looking at the universe from a human perspective.

Well, if you are going to classify the entirety of human experience as "faith" then I can't of course argue that every single person has faith of some sort. I have faith that the sun will "rise" tomorrow thanks to the rotational momentum of the earth. I have faith that if I drop this full can of coke onto the floor it will make a huge mess. I have faith that things of which there is zero evidence - from the giant squid that lives in my nose, to the god that lives in the clouds, to the adorable teapot currently in orbit around the planet Saturn - very likely don't exist.

That last one is problematic in that as a class of entities I can never list all the things that I believe very likely don't exist. It is literally an infinite list. And no single one of them is more or less important than any other item on the list because they are all equally nonexistent. So if all of that is faith then every person has an infinite number of religious beliefs to deal with, and you've made words like faith and belief useless through dilution.

If you want to argue that not believing in god is somehow more or less significant than other belief in things that don't exist then I don't think we are going to be able to have further conversation on this point, because at that point you've set the existence of god as a premise rather than a conclusion and all we can do is disagree on our premises.

[Leisher]

you've made words like faith and belief useless through dilution

You're arguing semantics instead of the actual point.

they are all equally nonexistent

Prove it. Science is proving that it's more and more likely that alternate universes are a real thing. Who says their laws of reality have to be the same as ours?

If you want to argue that not believing in god is somehow more or less significant than other belief in things that don't exist then I don't think we are going to be able to have further conversation on this point, because at that point you've set the existence of god as a premise rather than a conclusion and all we can do is disagree on our premises.

Fine. Prove to me that God doesn't exist and show your work. Vince, you prove to me that God exists and show your work.

No more arguing feelings or opinions or semantics because they don't matter...unless you happen to be on the side of whatever is currently socially acceptable.

[GORDON]

Scientifically speaking, all it takes is one little piece of evidence that a thing exists for it to become a proven hypothesis. You can't prove the negative, you can't prove a thing doesn't exist.

This is why the Theory of Evolution keeps hanging in there.... nobody has ever found any evidence that actually disproves it, "the existence of bananas" be damned.

Also it bugs me when I hear fellow travelers say, "I don't believe in the bible." I always think... and sometimes say... "Oh, believe me, bibles are real, I've seen them." I like to make people evaluate the words they say, sometimes.

I also hate, "I believe in evolution."

Don't believe it, understand why it is a good theory. Most people who claim to "believe" in it don't understand what it is they believe in.

[TPRJones]

You're arguing semantics instead of the actual point.

No I'm not. Explain to me why the lack of faith in "god" is in any way different than the lack of faith in the infinite other things that are unproven. Why do you give it so much more importance unless it is because you already believe it exists? You are no agnostic, you're a deist.

Science is proving that it's more and more likely that alternate universes are a real thing. Who says their laws of reality have to be the same as ours?

If you'd like to include the potential infinite multiverse, then there are an infinite number of existing gods and an infinite number of non-existing gods and everyone who believes anything or disbelieves anything is correct in some universe somewhere. But again, gods aren't different from all the other things that may or may not exist; all those infinite universes also include ones where every conspiracy theory is true and where there is in fact a squid living in my nose. The infinite existing and non-existing gods are still not a special category.

As to proving a negative, nice try. That is a logical impossibility regardless of the topic.

EDIT: Sorry, I couldn't let that just sit there. I think this needs more clarity. I'm an atheist. That doesn't mean I know that god doesn't exist. There's no evidence either way. But I am comfortable presuming until evidence arrives that god doesn't exist, just as every human who ever lived is comfortable about assuming an infinity of unlikely things are not true. I don't see any reason to elevate the fact that god is unlikely above every other single thing both imaginable and unimaginable that also likely doesn't exist. I don't think the word religion even applies to that stance any more than it does to a lack of a belief in unicorns, talking tomatoes, or the efficacy of pixie dust as a levitation aid. It's not that I'm certain god doesn't exist, it's that without evidence I think the whole concept is as irrelevant as every other likely nonexistent thing.

EDIT2: Here's another way to look at it. Someone who votes for Clinton is likely to be a member of the Democratic Party. Someone who votes for Drumpf is likely to be a member of the Republican Party. Someone who doesn't vote at all because they have zero interest in politics doesn't have a political party. To insist that atheism is a religious stance is similar to insisting that the apathetic non-voter must be making that choice because he's a member of the Apathists Party, because everyone is in a political party whether they care about politics or not. I don't think it works that way.

EDIT3: I propose a compromise. I will agree that atheism is a religion if you will agree that bald is a hair color.

[Malcolm]

Prove to me that God doesn't exist and show your work.

Nickelback, Celine Dion, Avril Lavigne (and that's just Canada).

A bit more serious...
Washington, D.C. Cities that wicked have been routinely destroyed by most deities I can think of. It's amazing how hands-off the almighty powers that be seem to have gotten in their old age. It's a sharp contrast to all the wacky shit that happens in their scriptures.

Then, a huge elephant in the room for me...
Every televangelist and religious huckster that steals and lies in the name of the divine. I can't remember what comedian said it but it was brilliant. "You know, Carrot Top has more say about what people put his name and likeness on than god?"

Finally, there's all the contradictions inherent in faiths of all sorts.

Is this proof definitive? No. Perhaps some higher power(s) existed and did that shit, but I have trouble finding any of them to be omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, or anything besides cosmically ambiguous and ambivalent. People have a bad enough time trying to understand other people over gaps as pithy as a few decades. I can't even fathom what it'd be like if you had to hold a conversation with a being of god-like proportions (I guess it'd be like if Q paid you a visit or you found out the Elder Gods were real). I'm 99.9999999% certain that if things like that exist, I'd classify them as "assholes."

To summarize, I can't prove 100% one way or the other. I can, however, take note of abundant circumstantial evidence, apply statistical probabilities, and cover both cases:

1) God doesn't exist ... Dostoevsky's famous quote wins. If I had to place a bet, I'd put it here.

2) Some hypothetical Q-like motherfucker, or more than one, exists and may have played a part in the development of our universe for some reason. If so, I fall back on my instincts and evidence that points to him/them as being agent(s) of assholery.

[Malcolm]

Wait, they're not done shooting their own balls off just yet.

“Look, no one’s more frustrated than me,” Mylan Chief Executive Heather Bresch declared on CNBC.

Wow.

The Drug Price Relief Act would make prescription drugs more affordable for people in Medi-Cal and other state programs by requiring that California pay no more than what’s paid for the same drugs by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. It would, in other words, protect state taxpayers from being ripped off.

Industry donations to crush the Drug Price Relief Act “will top $100 million by the election, I’m quite certain of it,” said Michael Weinstein, president of the AIDS Healthcare Foundation and a leading backer of the state measure, also known as Proposition 61. “They see this as the apocalypse for their business model.”

Bribes? In the idyllic jack-ass paradise utopia of the Union of Socialist Californian Counties? Impossible. Anyhow, in a perfectly reasonable response, the respectable white drug dealers are threatening to take their toys and go home.

The drug industry, ambitiously, is positioning itself as a defender of California consumers. For example, industry representatives have warned that if the prices charged to state agencies were as low as what the VA pays, some drug companies might stop doing business with the likes of Medi-Cal, the prison system and the California Public Employees’ Retirement System, making certain meds unavailable.

But wait, it somehow against all logic gets better.

I asked Kathy Fairbanks, a spokeswoman for the No on 61 Campaign, if she’d characterize sky-high drug prices as a problem for patients. No, she said, that’s not how she’d put it.

“It’s an issue, how about that?” Fairbanks allowed.
...
I told her that, as a person with Type 1 diabetes, I’ve watched helplessly as the price of insulin has tripled since 2002.

“Oh,” Fairbanks replied.

[Vince]

People argue the semantics of atheist all the time. The only thing I really can say is that whenever their belief system is challenged (like the big bang theory had done for decades), they react the same way on a visceral level against it as a Christian does when confronted with the possibility that their is no God. It is faith. It is the reality you're built your view of the universe and your place in it upon. "Who am I? Where do I come from? Why am I here?"

These are all questions that have driven society and culture and I thing civilization since man first arrived. And sorry, atheism IS faith. Faith is a complete trust or confidence in something. An atheist has a complete faith or trust that God doesn't exist.

And the flying pigs and solving geometry problems are all well and fine, but miss how these things work for most people of faith. Consider a tree leaning at an extreme angle over a creek. I might hunt out of the tree all the time. I see it as safe. You don't. It's our experience we bring that influence that. That's more of a realistic comparison (at least to believers).

And as a point of order, Communism has killed more than 3 times as many people in its relatively short life than than all religions (as best we can calculate) from the start of civilization.

Leisher, when they test your daughter are you about to poop?

[GORDON]

And sorry, atheism IS faith. .... An atheist has a complete faith or trust that God doesn't exist.

No it's not, and no it doesn't.

[GORDON]

If there are happens to be the slightest bit of irrefutable evidence that there is a supreme being that created and is guiding mankind, I will come around in a second. I guess you could say my "faith" is pretty shaky. On the other hand, true believers wont stop believing no matter what, even in the face of complete pain and misery at the hand of their god, and in fact that condition got built into their dogma. THAT is faith.

[Vince]

If there are happens to be the slightest bit of irrefutable evidence that there is a supreme being that created and is guiding mankind, I will come around in a second.

But I don't think that's how it works. You give a woman a roofie and have intercourse with her, you don't get to turn around and say, "She likes me!"

The kind of "bring a man to his knees and bring about rending of garments" proof you talk about would be the equivalent of a spiritual roofie.

[Vince]

And sorry, atheism IS faith. .... An atheist has a complete faith or trust that God doesn't exist.

No it's not, and no it doesn't.

I remember when you weren't so sure.

[GORDON]

And sorry, atheism IS faith. .... An atheist has a complete faith or trust that God doesn't exist.

No it's not, and no it doesn't.

I remember when you weren't so sure.

You remember when I was less likely to discuss it.

And I feel I shouldn't now. I am not all jihad about my opinion in this matter, and I don't wish to insult anyone of faith.

[Vince]

Interesting article I ran across. Wasn't anything I was seeking in relation to this conversation. NDE's are another area where science mostly just says, "Shut up, there's an explanation that doesn't involve a higher power and we'll get back to you as soon as we figure something out."

[Malcolm]

An atheist has a complete faith or trust that God doesn't exist.

No, it's not my faith that keeps denying a higher power. I have no faith. Faith is trust and belief without proof. I rattled off a list of shit which amounts to tons of circumstantial evidence. Short of finding the Ark of the Covenant and chatting with the almighty, that's the best proof I'm getting. If I'm placing my faith anywhere, it's in the mathematical and epistemological knowledge my brain allows me to throw at the mystery. Without the latter it's also hard to have faith, and my ability to glean knowledge was bestowed at creation, so I assume my lord and saviour intended me to use those faculties.

NDE's are another area where science mostly just says, "Shut up, there's an explanation that doesn't involve a higher power and we'll get back to you as soon as we figure something out."

Nope, again. Bullshit. Science knows for a 100% stone cold fact that your brain releases all kinds of fucked up chems into your system if it thinks you're about to die. People think they see or talk to god all the time if they're tripping strong enough hallucinogens ... again, another studied reaction.

I'll close with one of my favourite god quotes:

[Malcolm]

The game begins again.

The company said it would list the authorized generic—which will be identical to the branded product—for $300 per two-pack carton. Mylan said it expects to launch the generic in “several weeks,” after labeling revisions.

So they can slowly ratchet up that cost after another few years.

[Malcolm]

Lab coats catch up with the latest developments from last millennium.

New guidelines from federal health authorities are completely upending that wait-and-fear approach. On Thursday, the National Institutes of Health announced that parents should feed babies their first foods containing peanuts when they are as young as four months old—which is the earliest that they should be eating any solid foods at all. Children who are at the highest risk of developing a peanut allergy because they have severe eczema or an egg allergy should try peanuts in that early window. Children with moderate eczema can wait until around six months, while children without any risk factors can have peanuts “freely introduced into their diets” once they’ve adjusted to other solid foods. “There is this magic window of opportunity, where you can introduce peanut-containing foods,” David Stukus, a pediatric allergist who coauthored the new guidelines, told Stat News. When “we introduce peanut-containing foods early, the immune system can get used to it.”

[Leisher]

Duh?

Seriously, I've thought for years that it was scientifically accepted that kids need to be exposed to dirt, grim, and everything else and not live in a sterile environment so they don't grow up allergic to everything.

Maybe I was tricked into that because it seems so logical.

[GORDON]

Here's a little personal anecdote to give one pause, though....

I grew up in dirt, and dog shit, and played in creeks that I didn't understand were the main drainage systems for every septic tank in town. I had am amazing immune system. I almost never got sick. In fact, my immune system grew so strong that one day it began attacking my own nervous system, and it took chemotherapy to make it stop.

Wordness to the turdness.