Indiana's freedom of religious discrimination

[GORDON]

I wonder if I will ever in my life get so pissed off that I stop using tact when I speak to someone.

[Vince]

I'm referring to local individual experiences, not losing political issues. Likethese (extreme) examples.

Not to diminish what those guys went through, but that seems to be life for anyone different than the norm. Reminds me of the mm-mm-mm song by the Crash Test Dummies (if I'm remembering the correct band for that song).

Also, Matthew Shepard probably should be on that list as it's looking more and more like his death was due to his drug dealing. Now his killer thought he'd be more likely to get off if he claimed to have done it because Shepard was gay, but I blame that more on his being a brain dead meth head than a homophobe. Especially since he'd hooked up with Shepard in the past.

There was a black transvestite called Ducky in my small home town that everyone in high school bought their pot from. Very likeable like the guy/gal in Midnight in The Garden of Good and Evil. I always felt bad for him because he had more acceptance from the white community than from his own.

But I think that's just the human condition. As I've mentioned before, the most openly racist group I've ever been around was when I went with a friend to a gay AA meeting for about a year. And that was in a larger city.

[Malcolm]

I wonder if I will ever in my life get so pissed off that I stop using tact when I speak to someone.

I did. Sometime before high school, I don't remember when.

I've encountered, on average, as much homophobia in the cities as I have in the boonies. For whatever reason, when I'm at a bar with a couple drinks in front of me, I'm a magnet for fucked up people. They have the irresistible urge to strike up conversations with me. I'm not exactly social if I don't know someone, so I don't know wtf vibe is being picked up. Anyhow, when Michael Sam was all the talk in the NFL, one of these occasions happened. The dude explained how he hoped Sam would make the cut and get on a team so he could get in a pile up on his first play and have the bottom layer of players beat the shit out of him with some cover on top. He further went on to explain how god had killed Patrick Swayze because his character in Dirty Dancing slept with Jennifer Gray's character out of wedlock. God didn't approve and gave him cancer. Not one word of that sentence has been exaggerated or had its core meaning altered. Thank fucking jeebus he's not a regular. Have never seen his crazy ass again. Reason I didn't say much is because I go to the pub to chill and relax. I don't get paid to deal, argue, or get into fights with psychos. Secondly, it's almost like a Seinfeldian thing where I want to see how deep the insanity goes. Kind of like when George's former in-laws make him drive all the way out to the Hamptons to call his bluff.

Trust me, there's plenty of homophobia out there. Plenty of other prejudice in the same neighbourhood. Christ help you if you were black, Hispanic, or gay (and lots of other things) and had to deal with the less pleasant of my two grandfathers at any point in your life. There's also plenty of "Republicans = racist, women-hating, gun owning wackos" propaganda. I went to school with lots and have numerous friends that dance to that tune, ferver varying.

As I keep saying most people are decent.

The fuck they are.

I think most people are generally decent ESPECIALLY outside of big cities

Nah. Mostly dicks most of the time.

but lately the left's nutjobs have been far louder and more active than the right's nutjobs.

Not my fault the PR war was lost long ago and the right still hasn't found a way to recover. If the party or political philosophy can't sell itself, it deserves to die as a major player.

but that whole "hate the sinner and not the sin" stuff

A phrase uttered by Jesus exactly ZERO times in the Bible, nor anything even remotely like it.

that seems to be life for anyone different than the norm.

Who you like fucking is a rather integral part of your identity. If you have everyone tell you your urges are fucked up and wrong, and you couple that with the less than fun time in your life it happens, you can emotionally cripple someone very easily to the point of mental illness or hangup. It's not like when someone disagrees with you choice of clothes or music, though that might still get your ass kicked in a few places.

[Vince]

And I see what you are saying there, but that whole "hate the sinner and not the sin" stuff is just bullshit that people say to justify their own mistreatment of others to themselves. If you judge someone so harshly that you are convinced they are going to be going to hell because of the way they are born, then either your religion is hateful or you are. Or both.

I'm sorry for the hurt you've experienced in the past that doesn't allow you to see anything other than that. I mean that sincerely.

And I know you weren't talking about me personally. I'm not God, so I don't really know what He thinks about the whole issue. I suspect regardless of where He falls on the gay issue, He's probably against being a slut. And I've had gay friends. I just try to treat people decently. And if I were a baker or a florist, I can't imagine it'd bother me to provide for a gay service. I really think we're talking about such a small percentage of these providers that this seems to be much more about targeting and punishing than any sort of real grievance. And I think this is being driven much harder by the atheist wing of the left than the gay wing.

I know that some people will use the Bible as an excuse to be hateful towards homosexuals, but there are also those that are very caring people that just view it as a sin. They hold no malice towards them. I think abortion is a sin. I don't hate women that have gotten abortions. Not going to drive them to the abortion clinic or pay for one, but that doesn't mean I hate them or wish them ill. I usually pray for them because more often than not they're haunted by having had one.

I have had deeply held spiritual beliefs. I think that's why I won't begrudge anyone else that holds them, even if they differ from my own. And honestly, that seems to be the common denominator that I've seen. I have a coworker that tilts pretty far left of center. He's also an atheist. But he's an atheist that used to believe in God. He doesn't believe these guys should be forced to do something they see as not being in line with their religion either. And I think it's because he was once in touch with his spiritual side, that he can relate to them.

[Malcolm]

I think that's why I won't begrudge anyone else that holds them, even if they differ from my own.

Oh, I'll still call bullshit on some beliefs, no matter how deeply held they are.

As for man's relationship to god or being in touch with your spiritual side, I defer:

Crom, I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad, why we fought or why we died. All that matters is that two stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Crom... so grant me one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!

God ought to respect that life and self you've got, since he gave it to you, after all. If not, Conan's got the right idea.

Captain Kangaroo also had a profound quote. Something like, "The goal of every good parent is to raise a child that doesn't need parents." It's interesting applying it to a higher creator.

Finally, it seems to me that if there's a supreme being, and if he inspired his creations to worship him with miracles, revelations, etc., it baffles the everloving fuck out of me why one of his prime tenets is "Don't go worshiping anyone but me now." Is the almighty hurting for self-confidence so badly? I'd be like, "Yeah, go ahead! Shop the fuck around and see who you find! You think I'm joking about the 'one and only' part?"

Believe it or not, their are people of faith that can disagree with their lifestyle and still not hate them or even dislike them.

Hate the Nazism, love the German? I guess you don't put stock in the "we are what we repeatedly do" saying. If you can separate sin and sinner so easily, why does Christianity need confession?



Edited By Malcolm on 1430260114

[TheCatt]

Believe it or not, their are people of faith that can disagree with their lifestyle and still not hate them or even dislike them.

They would still be failing Jesus.

And Rufus.

[Vince]

Catt, I know you aren't the second coming. Jesus didn't own so many pairs of shoes.

Or a rabbit.

[TPRJones]

I've had none of these experiences, and I've not liked football all over the country, as well. Never, ever occurred to me that someone might try to... bully? me over it. Or if they did, I didn't notice.

To be clear the incidents I'm referring to didn't involve someone trying to hurt my feelings, it involved punching. Both were very belligerent and homophobic drunks and since I was in no mood to tiptoe around their prejudices at the time I didn't deescalate. Now that I think on it most of the worst incidents I've observed have involved belligerent drunks in one way or another.

Right-wing hatred is fueled by cheap beer in the same way that left-wing hatred is fueled by overpriced coffee.

Talk about living in a "demon-haunted world."

No worse than yours that is full of gangs of liberals eager to get you fired for disagreeing with them.

I have a coworker that tilts pretty far left of center. He's also an atheist. But he's an atheist that used to believe in God. He doesn't believe these guys should be forced to do something they see as not being in line with their religion either.

And ultimately I agree with him even though I've never had any belief in God. But then I also think business should be allowed to refuse service to minorities and for any other reason and then go out of business because they lose most of their customer base for being racists.

But that's a separate issue. That's about changing the law. And I certainly wouldn't agree with a law that allows you to discriminate against homosexuals but not against everyone else.



Edited By TPRJones on 1430260610

[Vince]

Oh, I'll still call bullshit on some beliefs, no matter how deeply held they are.

I can't understand why someone would believe what they believe, but as long as they aren't harming anyone against their will I defend their right to believe it.

[TPRJones]

...as they aren't harming anyone against their will...

And there's the real problem with Scientology. Between keeping people that want to leave their private navy as perpetual prisoners on the boats, psychological attacks and even blackmail against ex-Scientologists using information collected in their "auditing" sessions, and their Fair Game practices, they don't qualify under this condition.

[Vince]

And ultimately I agree with him even though I've never had any belief in God. But then I also think business should be allowed to refuse service to minorities and for any other reason and then go out of business because they lose most of their customer base for being racists.

But that's a separate issue. That's about changing the law. And I certainly wouldn't agree with a law that allows you to discriminate against homosexuals but not against everyone else.

This was something I was thinking about this morning along with my "at the point of a gun" argument. What are you willing to have the government do to citizens at the point of a gun. Would I have them force someone to bake a cake at gunpoint? No. Would I force them to make a sandwich for a black man at a restaurant? No. If said black man decided he want to go into the restaurant and eat his sack lunch along with all his black friends, would I force him to leave at gunpoint for trespassing? Seems like there are a bunch of other people here eating their lunch. If you want that he should buy lunch from YOU in order to sit here and eat, then perhaps you should sell it to him. If the restaurant owner lays hands on the black man for being in his restaurant, would I intervene with the gun? You bet.

[Vince]

...as they aren't harming anyone against their will...

And there's the real problem with Scientology. Between keeping people that want to leave their private navy as perpetual prisoners on the boats, psychological attacks and even blackmail against ex-Scientologists using information collected in their "auditing" sessions, and their Fair Game practices, they don't qualify under this condition.

That's why I qualified it as I did. I know there are a lot of allegations against them. And if true (and I suspect they are), that's a different beast. But as far as the members themselves believing what they want to believe, I'm all for them believing what they're inclined to believe.

[Malcolm]

...as they aren't harming anyone against their will...

And there's the real problem with Scientology. Between keeping people that want to leave their private navy as perpetual prisoners on the boats, psychological attacks and even blackmail against ex-Scientologists using information collected in their "auditing" sessions, and their Fair Game practices, they don't qualify under this condition.

If I ever become mega-rich, I'm going to take a few years out of my life to drag them into the light. That place is just begging for someone to blackmail them.

What are you willing to have the government do to citizens at the point of a gun.

The fuck? Gov't runs shit because it outnumbers and outguns you. If it doesn't, it'll do that first, then get to running shit. That's the sole reason. It is the bottom line recourse when all others have failed. Don't pay your taxes? We've got a tank for that, asshole. Don't want to serve jury duty? We'll send an armed sheriff to your door to retrieve you. Don't want to surrender peacefully and let your hostages go? We have sharpshooters for that. We got negotiators to, but they lack the finality of brute force. Don't want to show up to your court dates? We got more armed dudes for that. The status quo aims to keep the status quo for the status quo, usually at the expense of others. Occasionally making life better for others is incidental. You have as many "rights" as you have the desire and martial prowess to enforce.



Edited By Malcolm on 1430262036

[TheCatt]

Catt, I know you aren't the second coming. Jesus didn't own so many pairs of shoes.

Or a rabbit.

Jesus was pretty clear on loving one another.

[Vince]

I don't think that includes enabling what He would consider a sin. He stopped the prostitute from being stoned. He didn't rent her a room to whore out of.

[TPRJones]

By that logic there's nothing to stop from making that gay wedding cake. Because getting gay married isn't the sin. Having gay sex is the sin, and I think it's a safe bet they're going to be doing that whether they get married or not.

I'd go so far as to suggest that helping them get gay married would reduce the amount of sin because at least then they'd stop having sex outside of marriage. Although that's admittedly arguable because you could make the case that according to the bible gay sex isn't actually sex and doesn't count towards having sex outside of marriage.



Edited By TPRJones on 1430268842

[Malcolm]

I don't think that includes enabling what He would consider a sin. He stopped the prostitute from being stoned. He didn't rent her a room to whore out of.

We don't really know if he thought being gay or gay sex was sinful because he says precisely zero things regarding them. A few pages back, there's the eight verses out of Matthew I posted, and that's about divorce. He also points out that's a law Moses gave the Jews because they wouldn't stop nagging him about getting rid of their wives. Now if Jesus is hating on one Mosaic law, that really puts some of the others into question, like the ones in Leviticus that everyone loves to quote.

These are the same arguments I had in school for years. I have plenty of ammo, even if I'm restricted only to the Bible.



Edited By Malcolm on 1430271348

[Leisher]

Jesus was pretty clear on loving one another.

Not clear enough for a lot of Catholic priests...

But then I also think business should be allowed to refuse service to minorities and for any other reason and then go out of business because they lose most of their customer base for being racists.

This goes back to the point I was making to Malcolm that I said should probably be in another discussion thread.

It's interesting how corporations get around such things despite the current laws. (Sometimes they just get ignored and nobody says shit.)

And I would argue that in some cases, being discriminatory is good for business.



Edited By Leisher on 1430274211

[Malcolm]

being discriminatory is good for business.

They're allowed some leeway. I used to shoot pool in a place with a "no bandanas inside" sign.

But then I also think business should be allowed to refuse service to minorities and for any other reason and then go out of business because they lose most of their customer base for being racists.

Awesome until it's a service that's extremely limited or required in a timely manner. Shit, you wanted that morning after pill from this pharmacy, you whoring harlot of a hooker? Go drive to the next place that stocks it six counties over, bitch. We only do that sort of thing for couples we approve of, god-fearing folk in wedlock.



Edited By Malcolm on 1430274272

[Leisher]

They're allowed some leeway. I used to shoot pool in a place with a "no bandanas inside" sign.

That's the best you've got? Come on, you can do better. MUCH better examples of clear discrimination out there that get ignored.

Awesome until it's a service that's extremely limited or required in a timely manner. Shit, you wanted that morning after pill from this pharmacy, you whoring harlot of a hooker? Go drive to the next place that stocks it six counties over, bitch.

To be fair, the pharmacy could simply not stock said pill under current laws.