Islam - the thread of peace and tolerance

[Vince]

Derp

In 1786, Jefferson and John Adams met with Tripoli’s ambassador to Great Britain. They asked this ‘diplomat’ by what right his nation attacked American ships and enslaved her citizens and why the Muslims held such hostility toward this new nation, with which neither Tripoli nor any of the other Barbary Coast nations had any previous contact. The answer was quite revealing. Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja (the ambassador) replied that Islam:

“Was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Qur’an, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman (Muslim) who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.”

[Malcolm]

That's an extremely narrow view of his faith pushed by psycho fanatics. Such beliefs tend to take hold in shitty places of social backwardness and economic stagnation, like the Ottoman Empire circa the late 18th century and their largely independent sultanates, including those in modern day Libya. This is a classic example of using religion as an excuse to rob and kidnap. And to prove that's not the exclusive way to look at Islam, the pivotal moment in the First Barbary War was won with help from Arab, Muslim, and Greek mercs. That'd be the battle that gave to us halls previously belonging to Montezuma and shores that used to be Tripoli's.

[Vince]

You keep pointing out examples of Christians taking their faith to extremes. Please provide examples of countries that base their laws on the extremes of Judeo-Christian beliefs. You know, where it's allowed to own slaves and they stone you to death for being gay or adultery. That sort of thing.

[Malcolm]

Nigeria is a majority Christian country. The harshest penalty is death by stoning or whipping. Belize also criminalizes same sex behaviour, albeit not fatally. Though a decade in one of their jails could very well be the end of you. Also illegal in Liberia, where "death by inmate or guard" is a pretty common occurrence. And slavery? Shit, slavery goes on in all of modern Africa to this day regardless of the religion of choice of the populous. One doesn't have to go terribly far back into history to a time when first-world Western nations suppressed, criminalized, and stigmatized homosexual behaviour so badly that suicide was not an atypical response.

[Malcolm]

Here's someone making the opposite error.

These men aren’t Muslims. They have no regard for Islam.

Not exactly. They've got lots of regard for the parts they like, just as they toss away the parts they don't. In spite of a general prohibition on such things in that faith, it seems some adherents are intent on taking it and making it their own. In and of itself, that doesn't make it any more or less valid than the original from whence it sprang.

Claiming a religion as cover for terrorism doesn't make you a genuine follower of that religion.

Claiming a religion as cover for anything besides an expression of your beliefs in some higher power or order means you aren't a genuine follower. The short list of agreed upon tenets for Islam is here and not one of them involves violence towards non-believers.

The dude perhaps most responsible in the last 2-3 centuries for dragging that religion into extremist depths happened to be in the right place at the right time, throwing his lot in with the al-Saud family at the beginning of their reign.

[Vince]

Nigeria is a majority Christian country. The harshest penalty is death by stoning or whipping. Belize also criminalizes same sex behaviour, albeit not fatally. Though a decade in one of their jails could very well be the end of you. Also illegal in Liberia, where "death by inmate or guard" is a pretty common occurrence. And slavery? Shit, slavery goes on in all of modern Africa to this day regardless of the religion of choice of the populous. One doesn't have to go terribly far back into history to a time when first-world Western nations suppressed, criminalized, and stigmatized homosexual behaviour so badly that suicide was not an atypical response.

So... nothing?

[Malcolm]

Nigeria is a majority Christian country. The harshest penalty is death by stoning or whipping. Belize also criminalizes same sex behaviour, albeit not fatally. Though a decade in one of their jails could very well be the end of you. Also illegal in Liberia, where "death by inmate or guard" is a pretty common occurrence. And slavery? Shit, slavery goes on in all of modern Africa to this day regardless of the religion of choice of the populous. One doesn't have to go terribly far back into history to a time when first-world Western nations suppressed, criminalized, and stigmatized homosexual behaviour so badly that suicide was not an atypical response.

So... nothing?

I just said, "being gay will get you killed in Nigeria," which has over 50% Christians by population. How doesn't that count?

Secondly, this is something of a loaded question since there aren't any fundamentalist Christian countries and haven't been since Napoleon told the Pope to go fuck himself over a couple centuries ago. I mean damn, you can even go back to Henry VIII telling the Pope to fuck off, although he did that from the relative safety of England, far away from the Holy See where the pontiff would've kicked the shit out of him. The closest thing you've got today is Vatican City, which is surrounded on all sides by Italy and guarded by Swiss troops.

Priest-kings are relics of the stone age. Any faith can get stuck there with a shove or two of creative interpretation.

[Leisher]

Hazma bin Laden wants us dead.

Writes poem called "We Are All Osama."

[TheCatt]

Truck filled with grenades kills at least 70 in France

It may be premature to post in this thread.

"Anti-terrorist investigators take over Nice attack probe: French media citing prosecutor"

[Leisher]

It may be premature racist to post in this thread.

I'm just fucking with you. We all know who's behind this attack.

I just hope no black people were hurt. That's the most important thing.

[GORDON]

I think transgendered stock is way higher than black stock.

[Leisher]

How dare you! Racist!

[GORDON]

How dare you! Racist!

Homophobe! Or... wait... heteronormative cad? I don't even know.

[Malcolm]

Survey says...

Tunisian in his early 30s. Only a 98% chance of his being Islamic, although it's generally one of the less shitty places in that region.

[Leisher]

Survey says...

Tunisian in his early 30s. Only a 98% chance of his being Islamic, although it's generally one of the less shitty places in that region.

Did you mean to link this study that shows folks from French speaking countries are more likely to become jihadists or is this just a weird coincidence?

[Malcolm]

Gingrich just called for, then backed off, a movement to deport sharia law supporters. I can't say that's a wholly bad idea. Virtually impossible and impractical, though.

[Malcolm]

Hmm, I'm starting to figure out why the fuck Islamic psycho fundies can thrive. There seem to be two schools of thought on the matter:

School one: this is a war. They are the enemy by virtue of their faith and actions ... hell, let me quote the article:

It’s not going to change until we change it. Islamofascists will stop murdering people only if they’re dead. We in the civilized world should make them dead. We have the tools, we have right on our side, but those in position to lead do not have the will.
...
Newt is right – they are barbarians and need to be destroyed. The civilized world has to embrace a little of the incivility which allowed it to defeat evil in the past and thrive if it is to do so again. We must fight like our survival depends on it. Because they will, and it does.

Written by a DC political columnist whose grasp of history and warfare is apparently limited to the last game of Risk he played. Have fun trying to exterminate an enemy that can blend into civilian populations and wait a few years until you get complacent to kamikaze a soft target, of which you've got an overabundance. Further problems include going after state leaders who happen to be Islamic fundie psychos. Have fun taking on Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and a few other places. Let me know if you finish before the sun goes red giant and engulfs the planet.

School two: these aren't true Muslims, etc., etc.:

I do not share the view that Islam is a religion of violence. What is happening is that terrorists are using religion to legitimise their heinous activities for worldly ends.
...
I do not believe a true Muslim would decide to murder people for no justifiable reasons

Spoken in an interview by local Nigerian politician, who is equally clueless but in a Flanders-like way:

What do you think can be done to stop the incessant killings of Christians?

The government should give such killers the treatment it is giving Boko Haram by rounding them up and prosecuting them as deterrence for others. In the past, people used to hesistate [sic] to report Boko Haram out of fear that they would be killed by the sect, since the sect appeared invincible at that time. But today, people are volunteering information which is responsible for the frequent arrests of members of the sect. The same approach for the (non-Muslims and Christians) killers will lead to arrest and retribution that will go a long way in stopping the mindless killings.

Are you high? Even among African countries, Nigeria is legendary for its corruption, especially the police and government. It is exactly those bullshit governmental policies and general oppression of society and individual rights which allow fundie psychos to gain a foothold in someone's brain.

Christendom has since outgrown Christian theocracy with ‘the Inquisition’ as the constitution in favour of secularity.

Because the middle class and merchants finally got enough power to tell the religious institution of the day to go fuck itself. Those dudes had power because they had money because their state economies weren't permanently sitting in the toilet. I'm not sure how far down into "rock bottom" one's country has to go before the populous finally smartens up, gets tired of perpetually despotic yet shifting regimes, and finally gets serious about long-term stability, but it's quite obvious there's a lot of depth left to plumb for the majority. It sure as shit doesn't help when the US props up douchebags like the Saudi royal family then turns around to condemn the poorer, less strategically valuable religious loons.

Until someone comes up with a third line of thought, enjoy the current world geopolitical atmosphere.

[Vince]

"We may never know his motive."

[Malcolm]

"We may never know his motive."

There's only one: suicide attacks are made possible by weak-willed minds and and persuasive sociopaths who take advantage of them. Occasionally, both of those personalities inhabit the same brain and you only need one individual. Nowadays, since any dumb-ass can post information on how to do any dumb-ass thing to any other dumb-ass, it's a lot easier to go out in a blaze of attention and carnage, and get your fifteen minutes of bad-ass fame in. You'll notice the excessive amount of ass in that option.

[Leisher]

I see two other folks have been arrested in relation to this attack.