TPRJones wrote:So far the arguments used by the bakery and their ilk are exactly the same things that were used to justify the outlawing of interracial marriage and even the basis of slavery. That hardly speaks well towards their moral position. If we allow them to stop serving gays because they hate gays, shouldn't we also allow them to stop serving blacks because they hate blacks?
Actually, the reason the government got involved with marriage to begin with was to stop interracial marriages.
Bull the fuck shit. Earliest known marriage law is from Mississippi in 1830, and it regards the ability of women to own property apart from their husband. After property, then rulings came in response to polygamy.
Edited By Malcolm on 1430242833
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Vince wrote:I think the baker should have made the cake. I don't think the government should FORCE the baker to make the cake.
Government is force. I approach these things with the question, "Are you okay with the government coming in with guns drawn to enforce this law/rule?"
I am NOT okay with the government coming in and forcing a baker at gunpoint to make a cake for someone for whom they do not want to make a cake. So I think the government has no business in this.
Government absolutely has a place here. The point of government is enforce the rights and liberties of individual... at gun point.
Vince wrote:I've seen no evidence of this. Can you show me where they told the gay people they didn't serve gay people? Can you show me where they said "We can't do any business with you"?
Isn't the whole point of this that they refused to bake their cake? Are you implying they in fact did bake their cake?
Unless they just don't do wedding cakes at all - which they do - then the only difference left is the fact that these folks are gay and therefor they refused them based entirely on their sexual orientation.
They're both being dicks. That's my point. One is allowed to do it because it fits public pressure, the other not so much.
No, one is allowed to do it because it's not criminal, while what the other one is doing is criminal.
Whether or not it should be criminal is a different discussion entirely. But regardless right now it is.
Edited By TPRJones on 1430247925
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Malcolm wrote:Here are all the places where the biz owner would have legal standing to refuse based on the fact that homosexuality is a crime, and even though it's not lit up, you can include Russia.
Of course, there might also be some other things there labeled "criminal" which would make the move difficult.
Most of those red countries have something in common...
Also, if you showed the US and which states had a legal standing to refuse based on homosexuality not being a protected class, it would be most of the US states.
Indiana being one of them which made this whole thing kind of silly.
Anywhere red or purple isn't gay marriage friendly.
Here's map of bullshit anti-sodomy laws in the US, the darker the red, the more recently the Supreme Court had to strike them down. Notice any overlap from the other map?
Edited By Malcolm on 1430248652
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
They're both being dicks. That's my point. One is allowed to do it because it fits public pressure, the other not so much.
No, one is allowed to do it because it's not criminal, while what the other one is doing is criminal.
Whether or not it should be criminal is a different discussion entirely. But regardless right now it is.
Can you show me where GoFundMe said they were taking it down because their actions were criminal?
I don't disagree with the distinction between the two, but I do disagree that it wasn't their guiding factor. I think they bowed to pressure without even thinking about the law.
I honestly don't believe that anyone or any group with beliefs that are on the right side of the political spectrum are allowed the same rights as left leaning groups. I honestly don't give a shit about the actual discussion at hand as I feel like the law says they should have made the cake, end of story. However, the one sided bullying that's going on in this country is very troubling to me.
We're told every day that the right is a bunch of fascist bullies intent upon forcing their beliefs on everyone else (and I'm not arguing they aren't...), yet all I see from the left is them forcing their beliefs on everyone else. "Oh you don't agree with us? Well, no problem, you're now blacklisted. Enjoy your career you no longer have because we're going to take everything we can away from you simply because you had a different opinion."
It concerns me.
"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
Leisher wrote:Can you show me where GoFundMe said they were taking it down because their actions were criminal?
I don't disagree with the distinction between the two, but I do disagree that it wasn't their guiding factor. I think they bowed to pressure without even thinking about the law.
It's earlier in the thread. I think GoFundMe's word is "heinous," not criminal, but the examples were all criminal behavior.
I honestly don't believe that anyone or any group with beliefs that are on the right side of the political spectrum are allowed the same rights as left leaning groups...
We're told every day that the right is a bunch of fascist bullies intent upon forcing their beliefs on everyone else (and I'm not arguing they aren't...), yet all I see from the left is them forcing their beliefs on everyone else.
Both sides are very guilty of this activity. The difference is where you are.
If you are in New York or Los Angelas or on the internet, these are places that are left-leaning environments so those on the right side of the spectrum get severely mistreated and abused. Go to just about any rural area or small city and the exact opposite is true; they're going to stone the gays and scorn the Jews for killing Jesus.
I have witnessed both in abundance. It's all about where you are and what is "normal" there. The left being assholes is generally more visible to us because we're all online. But it's not more common.
Edited By TPRJones on 1430251902
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
I don't disagree with the distinction between the two, but I do disagree that it wasn't their guiding factor. I think they bowed to pressure without even thinking about the law.
Of course it's not a guiding factor. I bet they thought a lot about the law, then figured what they could legally do to distance themselves the fuck from these people bringing their website negative attention, justly or otherwise. They're certainly applying it selectively here and being dicks. But this kind of being a dick isn't illegal.
I think GoFundMe's word is "heinous..."
Yeah. By an dictionary I can find, this word is subjective and GoFundMe's behaviour doesn't qualify.
Edited By Malcolm on 1430252144
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
TPRJones wrote:Go to just about any rural area or small city and the exact opposite is true; they're going to stone the gays and scorn the Jews for killing Jesus.
I'm looking out my window in my small town and I'm not seeing any gay stoning or jew scorning.
In fact, I've lived lots of places, in many small towns and cities, and I've never seen either. I've never even heard of it happening anywhere near me. Well, I heard a lot about Baptist churches getting burned down in the south, but that's pretty much what an enlightened liberal would do because they are athiests, I guess.
Of course, anecdotal evidence is not data.
+++
Don't speak out against a Democrat to the media, you'll get the Joe the Plumber treatment.
Don't have a conservative tax-emept foundation, you'll get the IRS sicced on you and your member lists will be turned over.
Don't even mention you disagree with homosexual marriage, ever. If anyone gets a whiff you will be destroyed.
++++
I'm seriously considering disappearing dtman.com front page archives because I may have said something in the past that could trigger the wrong person.
The USA today is NOT getting it from both sides. It's pretty much one way. Be progressive or else.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
Vince wrote:I've seen no evidence of this. Can you show me where they told the gay people they didn't serve gay people? Can you show me where they said "We can't do any business with you"?
Isn't the whole point of this that they refused to bake their cake? Are you implying they in fact did bake their cake?
Unless they just don't do wedding cakes at all - which they do - then the only difference left is the fact that these folks are gay and therefor they refused them based entirely on their sexual orientation.
It your implication that's false. If a straight woman had walked into their store and wanted to buy a wedding cake for her gay brother's wedding and this person said no for religious reasons, they just refused service to a straight person. If that same woman's gay brother walked in and wanted to buy a wedding cake for his sister's traditional wedding and they sold him a cake, they'd be selling him (a gay man) a wedding cake.
This has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the customer. It's about the wedding and their religious beliefs.
Believe it or not, their are people of faith that can disagree with their lifestyle and still not hate them or even dislike them.
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren
I've been in 30 or so states and have lived in the South, Southwest, and Midwest. I'm not exactly seeing things just out my living room window.
There are indeed manipulative assholes on both sides of the spectrum, but lately the left's nutjobs have been far louder and more active than the right's nutjobs.
"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
As a semi-progressive who has progressive friends, I can assure you there are situations where progressives are getting it in their ends as well. Your anecdotal evidence does not carry more weight than mine does. And all your anecdotes you list between the +s are of liberals being dicks in locations that are mostly liberal, which is exactly what I said was the case.
As to your own small town community, how many openly gay homosexuals are accepted members of you community? Or are there not any because they're too afraid and have to hide or move away?
As to the church burnings, the only two Baptists church burning cases I'm personally familiar with both were black Baptist churches that were burned down by white Christian racists. Don't go blaming that shit on atheists.
Edited By TPRJones on 1430253069
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
TPRJones wrote:As to your own small town community, how many openly gay homosexuals are accepted members of you community? Or are there not any because they're too afraid and have to hide or move away?
Is this really your impression of small town America?
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
Vince wrote:This has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the customer. It's about the wedding and their religious beliefs.
Believe it or not, their are people of faith that can disagree with their lifestyle and still not hate them or even dislike them.
It would still be illegal to refuse to sell the straight sister the cake for her brother's wedding, because the sexual orientation of the wedding participants is what they are discriminating against. In the same way they couldn't refuse to sell a white woman a cake because she was buying it for her wedding to a black man and they didn't approve of that.
And I see what you are saying there, but that whole "hate the sinner and not the sin" stuff is just bullshit that people say to justify their own mistreatment of others to themselves. If you judge someone so harshly that you are convinced they are going to be going to hell because of the way they are born, then either your religion is hateful or you are. Or both.
(As always, this is the general "you" used here, not you in particular Vince)
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
TPRJones wrote:As to your own small town community, how many openly gay homosexuals are accepted members of you community? Or are there not any because they're too afraid and have to hide or move away?
Is this really your impression of small town America?
Yes. I have spent about half my life in various small towns all over the country. And the vast majority are very polite on the surface but if you are different because you are gay or atheist or progressive you will be openly hated by some, quietly snubbed by others, and in some rare cases have people throw bricks through your window while yelling "go home faggot!"
On more than one occasion (two, actually) the mere fact that I don't like football meant that I must be gay and was physically attacked for it.
There are assholes everywhere. And they aren't the majority, but they're annoying enough to make up for that in spades.
Edited By TPRJones on 1430253652
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
TPRJones wrote:As a semi-progressive who has progressive friends, I can assure you there are situations where progressives are getting it in their ends as well.
Other than maybe gun control, what issues are progressives getting handed their asses on?
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren
TPRJones wrote:As to your own small town community, how many openly gay homosexuals are accepted members of you community? Or are there not any because they're too afraid and have to hide or move away?
Is this really your impression of small town America?
Yes. I have spent about half my life in various small towns all over the country. And the vast majority are very polite on the surface but if you are different because you are gay or atheist or progressive you will be openly hated by some, quietly snubbed by others, and in some rare cases have people throw bricks through your window while yelling "go home faggot!"
On more than one occasion (two, actually) the mere fact that I don't like football meant that I must be gay and was physically attacked for it.
There are assholes everywhere. And they aren't the majority, but they're annoying enough to make up for that in spades.
Welp. Talk about living in a "demon-haunted world."
I've had none of these experiences, and I've not liked football all over the country, as well. Never, ever occurred to me that someone might try to... bully? me over it. Or if they did, I didn't notice.
Anyway, I'm not sure we have a common enough foundation to be able to discuss this. I think most people are generally decent ESPECIALLY outside of big cities, and you think everyone is a piece of shit especially if they live outside of a city. Not a lot of common experience, here, for an exchange of ideas on this subject.
I think I'm out of this thread. I've said everything I have to say, already.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
and you think everyone is a piece of shit especially if they live outside of a city
Nope. As I keep saying most people are decent. But the assholes are everywhere and they are loud and when they hit you it doesn't matter that they are a minority you are still being hit by someone.
Oh, and I also specifically said people in cities are assholes, too, just of a different type.
Basically you've completely misrepresented or misunderstood everything I've said. So, that's fair I guess.
Edited By TPRJones on 1430254795
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