My initial reaction is that they should be allowed to wear what they want, as long as it is "formal."
IIRC a couple girls in my high school wore tuxes to prom, and we all discretely wondered if they were lesbians, but they are married to men w/kids now. It wasn't a big deal. I still had hetero sex that night.
Edited By GORDON on 1428434428
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
Yeah, except show me the examples of those churches today that teach that about the religions that hate blacks or mixed marriages etc.
I know of a Klan church in Vidor, TX that is very much opposed to mixed-race weddings. I'm sure there are others.
Plus what is and isn't a religion is not codified into law in a meaningful way outside the IRS non-profit status. Basically if you start a church and call it a church then it's a church. Right now only the gays will be persecuted by this Indiana law, but there's no limits to what it could be used to excuse. Even though I'll fight against it, I'm not too worried because if it stands it will eventually be struck down by the courts anyway.
Plus, the things you cite are explicitly protected classes within the Constitutions or its Amendments.
Nope. The only mention of race or gender left in the Constitution is about the right to vote, and no one is trying to take that way from homosexuals (yet). All the other protections you are referring to aren't in the Constitution but in federal regulations, where sexual orientation has equal weight. If you find a way to discriminate against sexual orientation then there is no reason you can't use that same method to discriminate against all the other equally protected qualities like race and gender.
Edited By TPRJones on 1428448172
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
TPR is absolutely correct. There was a very good piece in the WSJ today or yesterday about the numerous challenges to federal law based on religions. (Avoiding the draft, avoiding paying taxes, drug laws, etc). Basically saying that it would be untenable to allow religion to trump personal freedom.
Oregon levies $135K fine. GoFundMe page has been shut down by the hosts, probably because they clearly violated Oregon law. And here again is a dude totally a few points:
Family Research Council President Tony Perkins blasted the harsh penalty levied against the Kleins.
“The state of Oregon has given a new meaning to shotgun weddings,” Perkins said. “You will be forced to participate in same-sex weddings and violate your beliefs.”
They're baking a cake, Tony, not walking down the aisle. They could also have subcontracted the gig out to someone else and made everyone's life easier.
“If Americans are not free to decline to be involved in a specific activity that violates their beliefs, then we are not free,” he said.
Awesome. I'm going to start a religion where I believe I don't need to pay taxes of any kind or serve jury duty. I had a vision last night in which a higher power spoke to me and told me those things are the root of all evil and he's pissed whenever anyone does them. Still way more sane than some "faiths." This isn't a bakery run out of a church or their home, either. Not a private residence of house of worship.
Melissa told me the state of Oregon is trying to send a message to Christian business owners.
“They are trying to say — look what will happen to you if you decide to live by your faith,” she said. “They won’t be satisfied until we lose everything.”
This is too good a shot to pass up -- climb down off your cross. It's not your Christianity specifically. It's the single belief some corners of that faith, including the one you live in, cling to for reasons that most psychs would have a holiday with. You aren't the only ones, but you're the most plentiful, statistically speaking.
What makes it even more brain-numbing, theologically speaking, is that Jesus Christ, your lord and saviour, only has ONE, count 'em ONE, segment in the whole of the New Testament where he might arguably be referring to homosexuality, Matthew 19:1-8:
19 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan;
2 And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.
3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
While I see a mention of "male and female," that can be interpreted five bajillion ways that don't involve the physical. If you think that's stretching things, it's far less imaginative than some of the more acid trippy booksin the collection. I also see a reference to Mosaic law about divorce, NOT marriage. I also don't see a connection between "wife" and "female." You'd think god would make that explicit so us puny mortals wouldn't get any crazy ideas. The majority of the New Testament ranting against homos come from Paul of Tarsus, the convert that wrote all those damn letters to everyone after falling off his mount and getting blinded for a few days. If you're going with him, then he hates pre- and extramarital sex as much as gay sex. If you want to start citing the Old Testament, well ... that brings all kind of wacky baggage and laws with it.
But finally, Oregon's got a law that directly states in writing someone's sexual orientation is not a basis to refuse biz service. Read the law before you open the biz.
Edited By Malcolm on 1430071149
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
You will be forced to participate in same-sex weddings and violate your beliefs.
No, just no, that is not what is happening. You're just making a damned cake.
Oregon's got a law that directly states in writing someone's sexual orientation is not a basis to refuse biz service. Read the law before you open the biz.
I would make them a cake that looked like it was decorated by a 5 year old. I would tell them on the front end that I really didn't want to take their business, as it was against my beliefs and offer them the chance to be a decent human being and take their business to someone else. And then the cake would look like a Pollock painting.
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren
Actually, if I were religiously inclined not to make them one that's what I'd do. Since I don't care religiously, I'd probably ONLY do gay wedding cakes and get word out that I'm a religious zealot and gouge the shit out of them. They could come to me out of spite and I'd charge them 3 times as much as any other baker. Straight couple would see my prices and think, "Holy shit, we're going some place cheaper."
I'd call that win-win.
And that's the problem with these cases. The gay lobby is only looking for a win-lose. A win-win would be them going to someone that didn't object to making their cake. They aren't content with just being allowed to be married. They have to punish those that don't agree with them. They are not "being excellent to one another."
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren
Vince wrote:I would make them a cake that looked like it was decorated by a 5 year old. I would tell them on the front end that I really didn't want to take their business, as it was against my beliefs and offer them the chance to be a decent human being and take their business to someone else. And then the cake would look like a Pollock painting.
Cool. Then they take out an ad in the local paper and say, "Here's what the shitty bakery down the street did for our wedding. They obviously hate their customers."
They have to punish those that don't agree with them.
If the bakers don't think they should bake cakes, maybe they shouldn't bake for a living.
Edited By Malcolm on 1430144097
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Pretty much the same thing I think of Henry Ford, Chuck Lindbergh, James Mooney getting the highest award possible for a non-native Nazi, same as IBM's Tom Watson. Political bullshit. Also, tell me how gay marriage is killing people like the two things you mentioned. In fact, most of the analogies I hear in defense of denying service to customers based on religious beliefs seems to equate gay people with either KKK members, Nazis, or some other plainly psychotic group.
Edited By Malcolm on 1430145205
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
I'm curious to see how the tolerant gay agenda folks are going to react now that Bruce Jenner has come out of that OTHER closet and described himself as a Christian conservative?
Some of the tweets have been rather ugly.
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren
Strictly speaking, I don't think Bruce is gay. Trans perhaps.
He said he has never been attracted to men and has always been heterosexual, but currently identifies as asexual.
Edited By Malcolm on 1430150162
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Malcolm wrote:Strictly speaking, I don't think Bruce is gay. Trans perhaps.
He said he has never been attracted to men and has always been heterosexual, but currently identifies as asexual.
From what I've seen, I'd agree with that characterization.
But I wasn't the one that created the one LGBT umbrella.
I always thought that was a bit strange. Sure as hell all of them don't get along all the time.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Malcolm wrote:Also, tell me how gay marriage is killing people like the two things you mentioned.
It's not, and that's not what I'm saying. But you either allow people freedom based on their conscience or you don't.
This country doesn't. Your faith is not a blank check to take whatever you want and have them protected under law, least of all when you're outside your temple/church/synagogue/whatever. Otherwise we'd be living under some type of bullshit theocracy, the likes of which sprinkles Iran with its own special flavour of crazy. That's why Catholics have to wait until 21 to drink like everybody else, it's why you can't trip balls on peyote in public whenever you want in spite of what the spirits tell you, it's why lunatics like this can't treat non-whites like tenth-rate human beings.
Edited By Malcolm on 1430155439
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."