Welcome to Thunderdome

The tech exists. Cops should have better body armor, and carrying ONLY non-lethal tools. Then they can stop being so afraid and trigger happy.

You really think they are trigger happy?

The "always empty the mag" requirement is disturbing, as is the rule about never deescalate that many departments seem to follow. As well as how quick they are to shoot a barking dog.

And stocking up on military hardware for use on civilians.

Yes, I think cops have a trigger problem.

I just remembered that people take this personally, and it's a forbidden subject. I withdraw. They're all heroes.

GORDON wrote: Cops should have better body armor, and carrying ONLY non-lethal tools.

They should have better body armor, and there is a LOT of opposition to tasers and rubber bullets.

GORDON wrote: The "always empty the mag" requirement is disturbing

Not sure where you heard that, but that's bullshit. It's not even remotely true. I need you to show me that in black and white, and if it is a requirement, it will be in black and white.

GORDON wrote: as is the rule about never deescalate that many departments seem to follow.

Source on this one? Cops show up to deescalate situations.

GORDON wrote: As well as how quick they are to shoot a barking dog.

Yep, it happens. Yep, it should never happen. But can you provide some numbers to prove it's a real problem, and didn't just happen "that one time"? (And to be clear, it should NEVER happen.)

GORDON wrote: And stocking up on military hardware for use on civilians.

Totally with you here. No disagreement. I'm fine with cops having an armory with "bigger guns" for specific situations, like the bank robbers in LA who wore head to toe armor, but not with them using that stuff in day to day normal situations. Small town police departments don't need tanks.

GORDON wrote: I just remembered that people take this personally, and it's a forbidden subject. I withdraw. They're all heroes.

Who's taking it personally?

I posted actual statistics about BLM doing more damage than good (more black lives lost and property crimes on the rise) because they (and everyone) refuses to acknowledge the #1 killer of young black men, and you turned that into an anti-cop rant filled with opinion and insults. You would never accept that sort of crap from someone arguing against you in politics, so why would it be ok for you to do so here?

This is why it can't be discussed here. Not because the people defending cops make it a forbidden subject, but because the anti-cop people are so mired in their bigotry that otherwise logical people completely lose the ability for reasonable discussion. I might as well be discussing why "not everything the Dems do is bad" with my insane right wings uncles.

I realize not everyone has positive experiences with police officers. Hell, I don't. However, painting them all based on the actions of a few is, literally, the same reason we condemn so many others like racists, crazy right or left wingers, sexists, etc.

If you can't have a reasoned discussion with your friends here, who are agreeing with you on points and posting statistics, then you're the problem. You're better than this. Don't EVER go full Malcolm.

Yes. There are some isolated incidents. But I just feel sorry for people who are afraid of the police. You should get to know some. You'd probably get a better perspective.

Pretty sure he knows at least one unless that person has left his life.

Leisher wrote: I realize not everyone has positive experiences with police officers.

I don't love police officers, but I have to say that in general, they've always been fair and professional to me. Probably fairer than they should be. Racists.

There used to be a big thread citing references for all of those statements I made, from no-knock warrants on the wrong house resulting in deaths, to shot dogs every other day, to emptying the mag every single time a cop had to shoot, and there was even a cop fired once for talking down a crazy guy who was going for "death by cop," and not just shooting him. The cops who rolled up on the 12yo boy on the playground, and had emptied the mags within seconds of leaving the car before figuring out the situation, and weren't punished. That thread was just pages and pages of story after story.

Aside from Malcolm's editorializing, it was just a running tally of things that were actually happening, every single day. I think these things started getting reported less, after Fergeson.

But some people got really angry about the "cop bashing thread," so I think it went away. I'm not going to go googling.

I no longer have an opinion. They're all heroes. But don't tell me I'm wrong.

Oh yeah, that cop I know.... she speeds like crazy and flashes her badge to get out of speeding tickets, and is vocally against anyone except for police having guns.

I figure it's like most things. 90 to 99% of the people are good. same with cops. But there's like 1.1M people in various public safety rolls, and about 765k of which have arrest powers. 1% of that is a pretty big number. That's more than an order of magnitude more people than priests in the US.

GORDON wrote: Oh yeah, that cop I know.... she speeds like crazy and flashes her badge to get out of speeding tickets, and is vocally against anyone except for police having guns.

Yeah, not a fan of any of that.

GORDON wrote: There used to be a big thread citing references for all of those statements I made

It still exists, but the name was changed.

GORDON wrote: from no-knock warrants on the wrong house resulting in deaths

Yep, that's bad.

GORDON wrote: to shot dogs every other day

Numbers? Call me crazy, but "every other day" seems made up.

GORDON wrote: to emptying the mag every single time a cop had to shoot

Again, numbers? Did you know that all white people smell like dog when they get wet?

GORDON wrote: there was even a cop fired once for talking down a crazy guy who was going for "death by cop," and not just shooting him

I could have read and discussed that story if me and my family weren't personally insulted and had death wished upon them in every other post in that fabulous thread you're pining for.

GORDON wrote: The cops who rolled up on the 12yo boy on the playground, and had emptied the mags within seconds of leaving the car before figuring out the situation, and weren't punished.

A very black and white picture you paint that the cops didn't know...

The police were responding to a call from someone who said that there was an individual waving what appeared to be a gun at the playground. While the 911 caller mentioned the gun could be fake and that the individual may be a juvenile, that information was not communicated to the responding officers.

Here's a little tidbit about one of those officers:

In the aftermath of the shooting, it was revealed that Loehmann, in his previous job as a police officer in the Cleveland suburb of Independence, had been deemed an emotionally unstable recruit and unfit for duty.[20] Loehmann did not disclose this fact on his application to join the Cleveland police,[21] and Cleveland police never reviewed his previous personnel file before hiring him.[20] In 2017, following an investigation, Loehmann was fired for withholding this information on his application.[21]

Whose fault is that? "All cops" or the fucking politicians running the departments who continually cut budgets and lower standards so people unqualified can become cops?

GORDON wrote: That thread was just pages and pages of story after story.

That thread had a LOT of InfoWars-esque links and stories posted within as well. Everything is true if you want it to be...

MSM 101 says that negative news sells. You don't see articles about good cops doing their jobs because people aren't clicking those links.

In fact, for fun I was collecting anti-military stories, which are super easy to come by. I was going to post a whole thread of nothing but news articles about how anyone who joins the military is a massive sack of shit. Nothing but rapists and murderers. It's a fucking undeniable fact too because newspaper articles prove it! Doesn't matter if it's only a few. They're ALL shit.

Sorry, just portraying the mindset I'm arguing against here. Didn't go through with it because I have too much respect for my fellow veterans and myself.

GORDON wrote: But some people got really angry about the "cop bashing thread," so I think it went away.

No, people got really upset because logic and reason were completely abandoned in that thread in favor of pure, unadulterated hatred. LITERALLY, wishing death upon other forum members' family and friends and saying the worst things possible about them. Don't, for one fucking second, try and pretend you wouldn't be equally pissed if someone here did the same to your family and friends. You should have absolutely crossed lines there to tell someone to shut the fuck up with that shit, but your blind hatred for cops never made you come to that conclusion.

I tried my best in that thread to have logical discussions about how police departments are actually run, and how it's worse than you even know. I was completely ignored by the two people steering that thread the most. Others engaged me in discussion, but ultimately I tired of having every point, every fact, every stat be completely ignored in favor of bigoted takes.

As for "cop bashing thread", you can pretend you had some civil and well mannered campaign going on to showcase where cops made mistakes or whatever the hell you were telling yourself, but that was not what was happening in that thread.

If you want to start an actual thread pointing out mistakes cops make, criticizing policies and whatnot, feel free. Just don't expect people to stick around when you start burning crosses in yards.

GORDON wrote: I no longer have an opinion. They're all heroes. But don't tell me I'm wrong.

See? There was no discussion. Just hate.

GORDON wrote: she speeds like crazy and flashes her badge to get out of speeding tickets, and is vocally against anyone except for police having guns.

She's an idiot, so yeah ALL cops, and ALL women must idiots. It's indisputable!

TheCatt wrote: I figure it's like most things. 90 to 99% of the people are good. same with cops. But there's like 1.1M people in various public safety rolls, and about 765k of which have arrest powers. 1% of that is a pretty big number. That's more than an order of magnitude more people than priests in the US.

Exactly.

Want to count all the Marines who made gay pornos, raped their way across the world, or tortured then murdered innocents? Hint: If there were 100 Marines total and 99 did that shit, it still wouldn't equal "all".

Am I still pissy about people wishing death upon my friends and family, and those of my friends' family and friends? Yeah, I think so. No place for that shit among civil, intelligent people, let alone friends.

1. For the record, I muted Malcolm long before he left. I didn't see a lot of what he had to say in the thread I'm "pining for."

2. Since it assumed my position was fueled by ignorance, with the "maybe you should get to know some cops" statement, I'd counter with maybe you should get to know some black people, and ask them how good they feel about interactions with the police.

3. If 1% of cops are bad, and 50% know about it but stay silent for fear of institutionalized retribution, then 51% of cops are bad. That sucks , but if the big departments need to be wiped clean and start over, so be it.

GORDON wrote: 1. For the record, I muted Malcolm long before he left. I didn't see a lot of what he had to say in the thread I'm "pining for."

Imagine dealing with that daily and no matter where you were on these forums. So yeah, people got sensitive about it. I REFUSED to mute him or ban him because I believe in the freedom of speech. However, once I got fed up and called him on his bigotry, he left. Apparently, he threw a hissy fit on the way out. Stranger informed me of that as I said I would never read Malcolm's response, I haven't, and I never will.

GORDON wrote: 2. Since it assumed my position was fueled by ignorance, with the "maybe you should get to know some cops" statement, I'd counter with maybe you should get to know some black people, and ask them how good they feel about interactions with the police.

Well shit, call me the next time you're having an NAACP fund raiser at your house. Stop bogarting all the black people! I thought about responding back and explaining how my grandpa is black (yes, it's true), I have a black aunt, black cousins, I've played sports and am a vet and thus black people have always been in my life, but that's dumb. I might as well tell you about my girlfriend who lives near Niagra Falls.

However, I will point out one of my best friends in the world is a militant young black guy living in SC. He and I discuss race relations, cops, etc. all the time. Not once has he ever condemned all cops for the actions of a few, and he rightly points out what a hypocritical argument that is. As he says, "Black people are out here saying 'don't lump us all together', while lumping all cops together". He says that as someone who is terrified to be pulled over and fully supports Kaep's anthem kneeling. Point of this isn't "I know a black guy", but that discussion can be had if people drop the name calling and deflecting of blame. Apply this same reasoning to our political climate.

By the way, he won't say it (or simply hasn't), but I will (and many others will, like Aretha's pastor) and that it's ridiculous for the narrative to be "young black men are afraid of cops" when their #1 killer is other young black men, and the numbers aren't even remotely close.

7K killed "this way", but we're really concerned about the 233 killed "that way". That's the problem...

And yes, I get the authority issue here, but for fuck's sake can we at least acknowledge there MIGHT be an issue the other way too? Maybe it's not ok that young black men are killed young black men? Maybe it's not ok for 6% of the population to be the #1 killer of cops by 18x?

GORDON wrote: 3. If 1% of cops are bad, and 50% know about it but stay silent for fear of institutionalized retribution, then 51% of cops are bad. That sucks , but if the big departments need to be wiped clean and start over, so be it.

More numbers without sources. I don't know if there's a misconception that has been blown out of proportion more than "the blue wall of silence". Are there cops who cover up mistakes? Of course. However, that doesn't mean all or even most cops as you assume. I have seen cops take care of one another on minor shit like speeding tickets (which isn't right, but I get it), and I've seen cops arrest other cops for DUI.

I have made the argument multiple times here, and in multiple threads, explaining where the issues in our country's law enforcement exist. I was completely ignored every time because people just want to blame "cops". There are shitty cops, just like there are shitty doctors, lawyers, programmers, etc. To pretend like you can eliminate them completely is the same type of logic liberals use when they talk about hugging the hate out of people. It just completely ignores actual human nature.

You can't sit there and expect cops to be perfect, while refusing to acknowledge or address those who hire cops, fire cops, set policy, and lawmakers. Not to mention the folks who constantly cut law enforcement budgets (usually the same people). By the way, society and the court of public opinion is a HUGE factor in bad cops being hired. "You need more women and minorities!" "Sorry white guy who scored highest in the police academy, passed the psych profile, and has no record. We can't hire you because you're not a minority. We had the hire the black woman whose psych profile revealed attitude issues because we need a diversity hire, and despite her score coming in at 1100 out of 1200 applicants, she was the highest in that demographic." (You might think that example is ridiculous, but it's almost perfectly spot on from a police hiring in the early 2000s in a local PD.)

Anyway, I have no problem with you pointing out negative cop things. They SHOULD get press. However, I just ask that we stop pretending the problem is only the people behind the badge. They can be a problem, but the real problem is higher up, and it includes the taxpayers who are bitching about the cops. People complaining about just the actual cops is like us trying to correct "the smoke problem" while sitting in an on fire house and completely ignoring the flames.

1. You should have muted him long ago. I would only read his posts in the music forum.

2. You missed the point.

3. I never said there weren't problems on both sides, but I stand by my opinion that that people who are given authority to summarily execute civilians on the street should be held to a higher standard. You will never convince me otherwise.

GORDON wrote: You should have muted him long ago.

Nope. If I wanted to live in an echo chamber I would.

GORDON wrote: You missed the point.

Then 'splain it.

GORDON wrote: I stand by my opinion that that people who are given authority to summarily execute civilians on the street should be held to a higher standard. You will never convince me otherwise.

You mean like people in the military? (They can absolutely be used as law enforcement, and are routinely.) Last time I checked the Marines had the lowest requirements to enter and be trained to kill and be given a gun...

Seriously though, you can say that all you want, but it doesn't mean anything. What are your standards? What do you want to see done? Give me details I can work with, not some random, generic statement with no teeth or explanation.

1. I didn't feel the need to be annoyed and insulted by him just to prove a point.

2. Earlier in this thread it was suggested that my opinion would change if I "got.to know a few cops.". I thought it was.mildly insulting, and a bad argument. But no one called out the statement. So, I made the exact same statement regarding black people, and even said why I was saying it, and I got both feet up my ass for being mildly insulting, and making a bad argument. There's a double standard, here.

3. The military isn't allowed to be civilian police on American soil, that's in the Constitution. Its such a different subject that I don't know why it's in this conversation. As for what do I expect, I expect much harder penalties for knowingly breaking the law, at the minimum twice the penalty required on non-law enforcement people. And if there's a blue wall of silence regarding corrupt or dirty cops, then every one looking the other way should be charged with ignoring a crime. There shouldn't be an institutional "punish the rat" mentality in the police force. Leave that to the mafia.

The fact that you don't agree that the folks with the power and authority to kill you in the street shouldn't be better than the average person is kind of astounding to me.

1. I didn't feel the need to be annoyed and insulted by him just to prove a point.

You're wrong there. I wasn't proving a point. I believe in the freedom of speech, and I was letting him express it. I no longer went to that thread, and I know others chose the same path. I simply changed the channel, I didn't silence him.

GORDON wrote: Earlier in this thread it was suggested that my opinion would change if I "got.to know a few cops.". I thought it was.mildly insulting, and a bad argument. But no one called out the statement. So, I made the exact same statement regarding black people, and even said why I was saying it, and I got both feet up my ass for being mildly insulting, and making a bad argument. There's a double standard, here.

Found it! Not my quote.

Cakedaddy wrote: You should get to know some. You'd probably get a better perspective.

I'll let Cake speak to what he means by it.

I will say that your response to it implied you were making a statement to me. (The quote button is kind of awesome to avoid such confusion.) I took your statement to mean something completely different. I thought you were attempting to throw a "you don't know shit because you don't know black folk" card at me.

GORDON wrote: The military isn't allowed to be civilian police on American soil, that's in the Constitution. Its such a different subject that I don't know why it's in this conversation.

Lots of things in the Constitution that our government ignores. Just was chatting with an Army Ranger about his experiences when they rolled into New Orleans to help police and patrol New Orleans after Katrina. He saw some shit.

GORDON wrote: As for what do I expect, I expect much harder penalties for knowingly breaking the law, at the minimum twice the penalty required on non-law enforcement people.

THAT is fine. No issue with it. Although, I would extend it to ALL public servants, including the U.S. Military, politicians, firemen, road crews, etc.

GORDON wrote: And if there's a blue wall of silence regarding corrupt or dirty cops, then every one looking the other way should be charged with ignoring a crime. There shouldn't be an institutional "punish the rat" mentality in the police force. Leave that to the mafia.

Yeah, that exclusively a police thing. That doesn't happen anywhere else ever. Oil companies don't collude, military members don't help cover shit up, politicians don't defend each other's corruption, stock brokers don't work together to fleece people, insurance, colleges, banks, yada fucking yada... It's so weird that we need federal whistleblower laws when only cops do that shit.

Jokes aside, I understand what you're saying, but what you're asking for here is essentially impossible. You can absolutely punish those who are found to have participated in a cover up. However, good luck ever proving someone was in a "blue wall of silence", which at this point is more myth than reality. Not saying it didn't or doesn't exist, but the extend at which some people think it exists is simply not true, particularly now.

GORDON wrote: The fact that you don't agree that the folks with the power and authority to kill you in the street shouldn't be better than the average person is kind of astounding to me.

The fact that your personal bias against the police absolutely hinders your ability to discuss this topic rationally astounds me. Proof? Please show me where I said that. In fact, go back up 5 paragraphs and you'll see how wrong you are...

If you take that as an insult, so be it, but it's not meant to be. I know I'm biased on this and other subjects. However, I'm willing to discuss this stuff rationally, but I want that same level of reason returned in the debate. Just based on your inaccuracy to my stance from one paragraph above I'd say you either have to be completely blinded or skimming. (See how I threw you a life preserver there?)

You and I aren't even remotely as far apart on this issue as I think you believe, but I really don't think your personal bias is allowing you to see it.

Holy moly. You think I'm not discussing this calmly and rationally? I'm out. If you're reading my posts as me being shrill, then we aren't communicating and there's no point in continuing.