Just fought with one. He went 19/3/14 and the other team surrendered at 32 minutes so no full builds.
Sorcerer's Shoes
Rylai's Crystal Scepter
Doran's ring
Malady
Nashor's Tooth
Rabadon's Deathcap
Flash and Teleport
I'll add that he was scoring kills right out of the gate. So, he was fed early in his lane which added to his deadlyness. Might have been more about playing ability than build.
Teemo - Is there really not a build posted yet?
So, Scooty and I were discussing the AP vs AD Teemo. I was saying AP is better because all of his abilities take AP bonuses and Toxic Shot adds AP damage to all basic attacks. He said AD is better because of this that and the other thing. I wasn't really listening. So, I decided to prove him wrong with math. But that failed because I'm missing something.
Any champion, including Janna, will by default, end up with about 82 points of AD. Every character starts with some, and it increases a bit each level. Taking you to 82. Now, take 2 phantom dancers, two blood thirsters and an infinity edge. That takes your AD up to 380ish when the thirsters are fully fed. Your attack speed puts you at at least 2 hits per second. So, in 10 seconds, you are hitting the enemy 20 times for 7600. Figure in the 85% critical chance and the bonus crit damage the IE gives you and the total jumps to 17290 in 10 seconds. Why don't people play more AD Janna? What makes Trynd/Noc/Ashe viable with this build, but not Janna/Teemo/Kennen?
Edited By Cakedaddy on 1342046055
Any champion, including Janna, will by default, end up with about 82 points of AD. Every character starts with some, and it increases a bit each level. Taking you to 82. Now, take 2 phantom dancers, two blood thirsters and an infinity edge. That takes your AD up to 380ish when the thirsters are fully fed. Your attack speed puts you at at least 2 hits per second. So, in 10 seconds, you are hitting the enemy 20 times for 7600. Figure in the 85% critical chance and the bonus crit damage the IE gives you and the total jumps to 17290 in 10 seconds. Why don't people play more AD Janna? What makes Trynd/Noc/Ashe viable with this build, but not Janna/Teemo/Kennen?
Edited By Cakedaddy on 1342046055
That build is similar to one I've used, but lately I've been building AS/AP Teemo. In fact, that build is almost his recommended items.
As for the differences in AD, certain characters get bonus AD, while others don't.
But for fun, here's the stats for Teemo and Trynd with 2x Bloodthirsters, 2x Phantom Dancers, IE, and Berserker's Greaves (no runes or masteries):
Teemo
Trynd
Everything looks similar because it's just based on base line stats and items. We'll assume masteries and runes would be the same.
So what's that leave? Abilities.
With this build Teemo's blind, poison, and mushrooms aren't doing shit.
However, Trynd gets massive crit chance, crit damage, and AD bonuses.
So yeah, you can absolutely do AD Teemo, and it'll be effective, but not as effective as AD Trynd. That's the crux of the argument against it.
Why penalize yourself, and your team, by essentially nerfing your abilities?
As for the differences in AD, certain characters get bonus AD, while others don't.
But for fun, here's the stats for Teemo and Trynd with 2x Bloodthirsters, 2x Phantom Dancers, IE, and Berserker's Greaves (no runes or masteries):
Teemo
Trynd
Everything looks similar because it's just based on base line stats and items. We'll assume masteries and runes would be the same.
So what's that leave? Abilities.
With this build Teemo's blind, poison, and mushrooms aren't doing shit.
However, Trynd gets massive crit chance, crit damage, and AD bonuses.
So yeah, you can absolutely do AD Teemo, and it'll be effective, but not as effective as AD Trynd. That's the crux of the argument against it.
Why penalize yourself, and your team, by essentially nerfing your abilities?
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
Oh, and here's my current Teemo build:
Sorcerer's Shoes
Wit's End
Madred's Bloodrazor
Malady
That's the core stuff as you're now hitting FAST and pretty hard. AS is above 2 at this point.
Throw in Rabadon's Deathcap, Frozen Mallet, or Thornmail depending on the situation. Deathcap to hit harder, particularly your mushrooms, Mallet to slow enemies down trying to run, and Thornmail to counter AD.
Sorcerer's Shoes
Wit's End
Madred's Bloodrazor
Malady
That's the core stuff as you're now hitting FAST and pretty hard. AS is above 2 at this point.
Throw in Rabadon's Deathcap, Frozen Mallet, or Thornmail depending on the situation. Deathcap to hit harder, particularly your mushrooms, Mallet to slow enemies down trying to run, and Thornmail to counter AD.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
We were looking at your builds. In all of the games that were in the list, you were going all AD. You may have had a +25 AP item in one of the builds. But all we saw were AD items. So, we thought you were playing AD Teemo now. But that's what started things. He said AD Teemo was better. I tried to do the math and AP damage didn't get anywhere close to the 17k that AD does just with those items and no ability bonuses. I couldn't come up with an AP build that did more damage over 5, 10 or 20 seconds. I didn't do Viegar. I think he's the only champ that might come close to AD damage. However, you'd have to keep the time low since he nukes and is then done.
Look again.
In my match history I have no full builds, but in one game I hit my four core items. Only one, Madred's Bloodrazor, has AD, but that's not why I get it. I buy it for the AS, the armor, and for the UNIQUE Passive: Your basic attacks deal bonus magic damage equal to 4% of the target's maximum Health.
The +40 AD is a bonus and helps keep things mixed enough that I'm not all AP.
In my match history I have no full builds, but in one game I hit my four core items. Only one, Madred's Bloodrazor, has AD, but that's not why I get it. I buy it for the AS, the armor, and for the UNIQUE Passive: Your basic attacks deal bonus magic damage equal to 4% of the target's maximum Health.
The +40 AD is a bonus and helps keep things mixed enough that I'm not all AP.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
I should also note that full AP Teemo has a short life span.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
But. . . when you do the math, an AP build would never even some CLOSE to the amount of DPS a AD build does. The most I could squeeze out of Teemo in 20 seconds was 6700 where AD was 17k. I have yet to find ANY champ that can do more than 17k damage in 20 seconds. Even taking it down to 5 seconds. AD is always way higher than AP. I have yet to find an AP build for any character, including AP mages, that can do more than the 17k in 20 seconds they would do if they took an AD build.
According to the spreadsheet, there is no mage (except Veigar) that can 1v1 ANY character that takes a full AD build. The champ with the AD would beat the AP champ. According to the spreadsheet, you throw a fully built AP Lux against a fully built AD Lux, and the AD lux would kill the AP lux. But, in game, I doubt that would happen. Might have to try it. What am I missing on the spreadsheet? You take the above build, and that character does 17k damage. I have yet to find an AP build for ANY character that can match/beat that. Again, even if you take it to 5 seconds to account for nuke mages that dump and then wait for cool down. The AD does more damage. And I'm not talking about AD carries. I'm talking about an AD Janna. She'd do more damage than an AP Ziggs.
According to the spreadsheet, there is no mage (except Veigar) that can 1v1 ANY character that takes a full AD build. The champ with the AD would beat the AP champ. According to the spreadsheet, you throw a fully built AP Lux against a fully built AD Lux, and the AD lux would kill the AP lux. But, in game, I doubt that would happen. Might have to try it. What am I missing on the spreadsheet? You take the above build, and that character does 17k damage. I have yet to find an AP build for ANY character that can match/beat that. Again, even if you take it to 5 seconds to account for nuke mages that dump and then wait for cool down. The AD does more damage. And I'm not talking about AD carries. I'm talking about an AD Janna. She'd do more damage than an AP Ziggs.
Are you factoring in everything?
Go through and start looking at masteries/runes. Perhaps the bonuses lie there?
We're missing something because LOTS of people play this game, and if AD was that much better someone would have figured it out and we'd see all AD teams.
Go through and start looking at masteries/runes. Perhaps the bonuses lie there?
We're missing something because LOTS of people play this game, and if AD was that much better someone would have figured it out and we'd see all AD teams.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
I've come to realize that I think I like playing Teemo more than any other champ.
I've also realized that my deaths are the opposite of every one else's with him. I die early and often, but then far less frequently as the game goes on.
For comparison, with MF in mid, I was almost always the last to die, but come late game was dying a lot because she has no escape.
I'll work on the early deaths thing, however I want some advice.
I changed up Teemo's runes and masteries to give him more armor. Should I dump all of that and just go pure AS/AP?
He's squishy and is going to die anyway, should I just get DPS? By end game, that's what he's about anyway, and with the new runes I've been giving up a lot of AS.
I've also realized that my deaths are the opposite of every one else's with him. I die early and often, but then far less frequently as the game goes on.
For comparison, with MF in mid, I was almost always the last to die, but come late game was dying a lot because she has no escape.
I'll work on the early deaths thing, however I want some advice.
I changed up Teemo's runes and masteries to give him more armor. Should I dump all of that and just go pure AS/AP?
He's squishy and is going to die anyway, should I just get DPS? By end game, that's what he's about anyway, and with the new runes I've been giving up a lot of AS.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
If your job is to be a killing machine, do that. If you are dying, then we need to change something other than your build to make you more tanky. When other teams have a teemo, we don't focus him. Why? Is it because we like Teemo and don't want to hurt him? Is it because we want the other Teemo to do really well? It's because he's out of reach. Their tanks/initiators are starting the fights, then Teemo comes in and kills us all. The other night, a 5v5 was brewing. Tanks from both sides were dancing in the middle and all others were behind their respective tank. People were shifting around the terrain trying to create opportunities, flank, etc. Trying to make someone on the other team make a mistake. Eventually, one side or the other got the upper hand, the fighting started, and in the end, they won the fight. Was it because our Teemo didn't have armor? No. It was because one of their non-tank champs got out of position, some of our non-tanks engaged, their team responded to the non-tank vs non-tank initiation, then our team did. Their team responded better. Basically, they baited us. As soon as we engaged the one 'out of position' enemy, the rest of their team converged on our 'out of position non-tank' who attacked theirs, and killed him instantly. Then it was a 4v5 before we really opened up on the original intended target. But he was in full on retreat mode and was out of reach before we could kill him. Now our entire team is out of position, over committed and were picked off one at a time.
In summary, we were out played. They baited us, we made the first mistake, and they capitalized on it. Do you think they are taking tank runes/masteries to survive those encounters? Hell no. They just played better right then. When we focus the correct targets, as a team, etc, things work out. When we don't, they don't. Do your job. Do it right. All will work out in the end.
What's the difference if I take tank runes/masteries but all AD carry items or take AD runes/masteries and a tank item during the game? In AD carry with Warmog's is not going to be able to chop down the turret, or score the kills they are supposed to be able to. They may survive more fights. But they aren't doing their job any more.
We have to figure out a way to make the other team focus our tanks so our Teemo can do his job. And we make them focus our tanks by making them think that the tank is the best viable target at that moment. Just like they have done to us sooooo many times before. How do we do that? By acting vulnerable? By faking a bad leg wound? I don't know. But honestly, I think it's about patience and waiting for the perfect moment to strike, rather than 'any' moment to strike. And that means, wait until their Teemo is a viable target. If we can't reach him and kill him, then we keep dancing. Don't let them reach our Teemo, and he will live. If they are charging in with CC and hacks to kill ours, then, I don't know. Someone will have to come up with something on the fly. Or, we need to make sure our team has CC to counter their CC.
In summary, we were out played. They baited us, we made the first mistake, and they capitalized on it. Do you think they are taking tank runes/masteries to survive those encounters? Hell no. They just played better right then. When we focus the correct targets, as a team, etc, things work out. When we don't, they don't. Do your job. Do it right. All will work out in the end.
What's the difference if I take tank runes/masteries but all AD carry items or take AD runes/masteries and a tank item during the game? In AD carry with Warmog's is not going to be able to chop down the turret, or score the kills they are supposed to be able to. They may survive more fights. But they aren't doing their job any more.
We have to figure out a way to make the other team focus our tanks so our Teemo can do his job. And we make them focus our tanks by making them think that the tank is the best viable target at that moment. Just like they have done to us sooooo many times before. How do we do that? By acting vulnerable? By faking a bad leg wound? I don't know. But honestly, I think it's about patience and waiting for the perfect moment to strike, rather than 'any' moment to strike. And that means, wait until their Teemo is a viable target. If we can't reach him and kill him, then we keep dancing. Don't let them reach our Teemo, and he will live. If they are charging in with CC and hacks to kill ours, then, I don't know. Someone will have to come up with something on the fly. Or, we need to make sure our team has CC to counter their CC.
This is exactly what no one does... which is why I suggested the defensive masteries, because then you don't have to adjust your play style and you can survive 5% more often.Cakedaddy wrote:If you are dying, then we need to change something other than your build to make you more tanky.
Can't just say "play better." Peeps have to do research or something, study other people who play better. Until then, there are defensive masteries to keep from feeding so much and dicking over the rest of the team.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
Again. Masteries make a lot less difference end-game, where we play our best, than they do early game, where we feed like..... rosie o'donnel's manager.Cakedaddy wrote:In summary, we were out played. They baited us, we made the first mistake, and they capitalized on it. Do you think they are taking tank runes/masteries to survive those encounters? Hell no.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."