Post-Corona Economy

[TheCatt]

If inflation outpaced wages for 28 months and wages outpaced inflation for the past 3 months (just making up the numbers to ask the question), how is that good? I mean, sure, the last 3 months are good, but don't we need another 25 months to catch back up (assuming all numbers are equal...again, just making them up to ask the question)?

Wages have won over the past 12 months, at least. Look at the graph I just posted, it shows 15 months of wages winning.

What data?

He was talking about inflation, so the CPI numbers. All of that data is available from the government via the BLS. https://www.bls.gov/cpi/

-"Corporate price gouging" vs "inflation"

"price gouging" is a bullshit phrase. It's emotional, it gets the people going. Price gouging as an economic term is pretty limited in reality. Your pour money on the economy (covid stimulus) you get more inflation.

Commodity pricing might drop, but consumers are not seeing it.

They already are seeing it? Especially if you use natural gas.

Financial news these days seems to be: "Hey, us in the top 10% are doing great! Fuck the poors!"

More like top 25-30%, but yes. I don't disagree.

Sorry, but I really don't understand why I'm supposed to be excited by fluff news on the economy when people are struggling, can't buy homes, grocery costs are through the roof, homelessness has skyrocketed, etc.

0.3% increase in homelessness is not skyrocketing. Home affordability is certainly an issue. Groceries are finally getting better.

[GORDON]

As the saying goes, don't piss on me and tell me it's raining.

This is the exact phrase that was going through my mind.

I didn't make that X post, someone else who noticed the data is bullshit, did. For those living in the real world "3.2% inflation" is an obvious, insulting lie.

The government has lied to people before. It isn't exactly a conspiracy theory any more.

[TheCatt]

Not a lie.

[GORDON]

If the data says everything is fine, but half the people think shit isn't fine, maybe there needs to be another set of data that isn't being looked at.

[TheCatt]

If the data says everything is fine, but half the people think shit isn't fine, maybe there needs to be another set of data that isn't being looked at.

There are many sets of inflation numbers! You can go to the link above and choose the one you feel best fits your story. Or, you can even calculate a personal inflation # based on your consumption patterns.

We use averages and medians to represent the average + median person, in aggregate. Of course it won't be accurate for everyone.

[Leisher]

Wages have won over the past 12 months, at least. Look at the graph I just posted, it shows 15 months of wages winning.

Ok, but that doesn't answer my question. I know that's good, but how far does it need to go to "catch up"?

He was talking about inflation, so the CPI numbers. All of that data is available from the government via the BLS. https://www.bls.gov/cpi/

I didn't watch the video Gordon posted. I was more trying to learn about your data points that make you feel comfortable about the economy. I want to get there and learn, which is why I ask the questions. Because as someone who makes six figures, just made a six figure profit on a house, and is technically a millionaire on paper, it's concerning that I cannot afford to buy a house right now. I mean, I could, but I don't feel like getting butt fucked without lube just so I can immediately lose my investment once the market corrects...if it ever does.

"price gouging" is a bullshit phrase. It's emotional, it gets the people going. Price gouging as an economic term is pretty limited in reality. Your pour money on the economy (covid stimulus) you get more inflation.

I'll buy in to "price gouging" being more about hyperbole, but the concept is real. Although yes, I would typically reserve it for emergency situations where we see scumbags jacking up the price of gas and batteries after a hurricane or whatever.

That being said, prices do not tend to ever trend downwards. It is also fact that we're always told about new things we need to lower prices, yet the lowering never takes place. Self-serve pumps were supposed to lower gas prices. They didn't. Self-checkout was supposed to lower grocery costs. They didn't. In fact, it seems like all businesses are doing is consistently pushing more costs to us and removing them from themselves. They don't want to pay more, so they just increase minimum tips and then tell people if they want the product they pay for, then they'd better tip! Hey, round up for charity so we can write it off! Hey, do all of this work for us so we don't have to pay staff to actually provide you service!

What concerns me about this is that this is pretty much guaranteed to always continue because of the "Feed Wall St" model that is unsustainable and nobody is doing shit about. Not the Ds, Rs, Is, or anyone else. A reckoning is coming because profits cannot always go up. There's a finite amount of money in the world. The question really becomes does this system break before violence breaks out?

They already are seeing it? Especially if you use natural gas.

Wait, the resource Ds are trying to ban? Truthful jokes aside, I think most people are electric, yes? Also, cherry picking small things, and gas bills are definitely on the lower scale for bills, doesn't equal an overall rosy picture.

More like top 25-30%, but yes. I don't disagree.

Fair. And I do want to point out that as a capitalist, I generally don't give two fucks about people who don't want to work or learn. Fuck them. You can't save the whole herd. However, for the people who work and pay into the system, they should be able to afford the American Dream. Don't say they need to work harder because everyone used to be able to afford it. Corporate greed has taken it away and when the masses are burning them at the stake they'll have nobody to blame but themselves.

They could be rich and have everything while keeping the masses sated, but nope, gotta have everything and more.

0.3% increase in homelessness is not skyrocketing.

What is? What's the normal rate? I don't seem to remember vast homeless encampments years earlier. Can we count the number of multifamily homes now? They'd be homeless otherwise. Can we count people trapped in their homes because they can no longer afford to buy, so selling is off the table? They'd be homeless if they tried to profit from a ridiculously out of control market.

I really do appreciate you taking the time to answer some of these basic questions and/or countering stuff we see and post here. It's mainly why I do so.

I'm rooting for the economy. I'm rooting for capitalism. I just don't have a lot of optimism based on what I'm seeing. I think corporate greed is out of fucking control and the government is bought and paid for, so they're not helping. I have legit concerns that something very negative is going to take place, which is why I wish we could course correct now before the unwashed masses decide we should try communism or something else equally stupid.

[TheCatt]

I know that's good, but how far does it need to go to "catch up"?

Again, the graph I posted showed that wages are already higher than pre-pandemic levels, but lower than during all the stimulus. In real terms. So they've already won.

Because as someone who makes six figures, just made a six figure profit on a house, and is technically a millionaire on paper, it's concerning that I cannot afford to buy a house right now.

Yeah. Housing is a special case right now. I... do not lack for money, but we decided to renovate our existing house instead of moving because housing prices are just STUPID, especially with mortgage rates. I blame the large # of corporate buyers, and airbnbers. Which, is capitalism. The neighborhood I live in actually banned corporate owners, essentially, to cut down on the # of renters.

That being said, prices do not tend to ever trend downwards.

Well, except TVs, cell phones, computers, etc, etc in technology. But I digress.

Self-serve pumps were supposed to lower gas prices. They didn't.

Ever been to Jersey? They definitely lowered prices.

. Self-checkout was supposed to lower grocery costs.

The larger problem is that labor is 14% of grocery expenses. But, what percent of that 14% is cashiers? (Versus stocking, meat man, management/corporate , supervisors, etc, etc). Half, maybe? Then you only replace half of them with machines, still have some cashiers... and you're at a potential 3% savings? That's noise, not noticeable in the long run, especially since it takes a while to implement. But at any rate, I hate it. It's nice when I have like 3 things, since people don't tend to use them. But otherwise annoying.

What concerns me about this is that this is pretty much guaranteed to always continue because of the "Feed Wall St" model that is unsustainable and nobody is doing shit about. Not the Ds, Rs, Is, or anyone else. A reckoning is coming because profits cannot always go up. There's a finite amount of money in the world. The question really becomes does this system break before violence breaks out?

Imho, you increase taxes on the rich + increase transfer payments.

Wait, the resource Ds are trying to ban? Truthful jokes aside, I think most people are electric, yes? Also, cherry picking small things, and gas bills are definitely on the lower scale for bills, doesn't equal an overall rosy picture.

Our gas bill in winter is almost as large as our electric bill in summer. It's not small. And we have gas water heating year round. These aren't small things. Natural gas is a $500+ BILLION industry (just counting the amount consumed in the US, not anything about extracting, moving, or storing it).

However, for the people who work and pay into the system, they should be able to afford the American Dream.

Raise minimum wage. Provide cheap(er) healthcare.

I'm rooting for the economy. I'm rooting for capitalism.

Same.

I just don't have a lot of optimism based on what I'm seeing.

I'm an optimist. But we have to make things better for the bottom 60%, and less good for the 1-5%.

I think corporate greed is out of fucking control and the government is bought and paid for, so they're not helping.

I don't think the government is 100% paid for, but Republicans certainly are

I have legit concerns that something very negative is going to take place, which is why I wish we could course correct now before the unwashed masses decide we should try communism or something else equally stupid.

Agree. I'd rather we were a bit more Democratic Socialist.

[Leisher]

Again, the graph I posted showed that wages are already higher than pre-pandemic levels, but lower than during all the stimulus. In real terms. So they've already won.

Without me looking at the graph, whose wages? Is that an across the board thing that includes all the C suite people? I never find those to be accurate. The top end tends to too heavily skew the results.

Also, considering that home affordability requires a 6 figure income now (What was it? A 55% across the board increase in the avg wage?), I'm not sure we're looking at the right things if we're just focusing on wages vs inflation? Right? Perhaps we need to change the measuring stick?

Yeah. Housing is a special case right now. I... do not lack for money, but we decided to renovate our existing house instead of moving because housing prices are just STUPID, especially with mortgage rates. I blame the large # of corporate buyers, and airbnbers. Which, is capitalism. The neighborhood I live in actually banned corporate owners, essentially, to cut down on the # of renters.

I do not disagree with any of this. I really don't know why massive corporations have decided to buy up a lot of houses, but it's an area where I think the government stooges should be concerned. They're going to take the blame for it, and it certainly is harming the avg citizen. As for the AirBnb stuff, yes it is capitalism, and I think you'll see more laws and HOA rules preventing it. Not to mention AirBnb and/or competitors going under and having to sell back homes at a loss.

I mean, people can't really afford vacations, so a lot of their inventory has to be sitting empty and losing money.

Well, except TVs, cell phones, computers, etc, etc in technology. But I digress.

Eh...we could get into a long argument on this one. Yes, some prices have absolutely dropped, but others have gone up. Sure, you can get an iPhone 14 now for hundreds less than last year, but the new 15 models are more expensive than last year. Yeah, some TVs are dirt cheap now that cost $2K a few years ago, but the low cost, entry models for the latest technology is higher. And do on.

I think tech is probably a bad place to argue prices for both of our positions.

Ever been to Jersey? They definitely lowered prices.

I have sadly. However, the exception is not the rule. It has to be an across the board thing. Jersey might have had special taxes, mob ties, whatever that drove prices up higher with service.

The larger problem is that labor is 14% of grocery expenses. But, what percent of that 14% is cashiers? (Versus stocking, meat man, management/corporate , supervisors, etc, etc). Half, maybe? Then you only replace half of them with machines, still have some cashiers... and you're at a potential 3% savings? That's noise, not noticeable in the long run, especially since it takes a while to implement. But at any rate, I hate it. It's nice when I have like 3 things, since people don't tend to use them. But otherwise annoying.

Looking at Kroger, I'd ask them why they need superstores. Why do they need 50 different salsas when the top 20 selling brands would be fine? Seems like there is a lot of waste in grocery.

Ultimately on the self checkout, I think they SHOULD exist, but only for the express lane. Get in, get out. For everyone else, there should be cashiers. People deserve to get good customer service, not be forced to pay to be a slave.

And in grocery stores' defense, I know they've had a hard time hiring.

Imho, you increase taxes on the rich + increase transfer payments.

'Splain the transfer payments please.

I've always been about EVERYONE paying their fair share, but I will always be against breaking the rich. Once you squeeze them too much the whole country suffers. People don't understand that a healthy economy needs rich, successful people to keep investing in it.

Our gas bill in winter is almost as large as our electric bill in summer. It's not small. And we have gas water heating year round. These aren't small things. Natural gas is a $500+ BILLION industry (just counting the amount consumed in the US, not anything about extracting, moving, or storing it).

Interesting. Our gas bills around here were ridiculously small, and two houses ago we used gas for all heat and cooking. Has natural gas pricing gone way up over the past decade or so? My last house was electric and expensive. (Another bill that I think is artificially high.)

Raise minimum wage. Provide cheap(er) healthcare.

I still need to be convinced on minimum wage. As corps in CA just proved, everyone who said the cost would be passed directly to the consumer were right. I don't see how raising prices on consumers helps working consumers. Although, in the same breath, $7 or $8 and hour is way too low.

Of course, I will also say minimum wage jobs should not be considered jobs actual skilled adults should be seeking out to provide their families a life. The living wage argument about minimum wage is horseshit. Again, it's trying to make the exception the example of the rule.

As for Healthcare, Obamacare sucks and always did. I know both sides blame each other, but I know a genius lawyer who has worked on it since day one and she called it garbage from the word go. The government would have been better off not fucking with existing healthcare and instead getting a roster of the uninsured, then offering it up to the lowest bidder.

And again, because no topic is easy, it is complicated. Healthcare costs are obviously out of control, but how do you unfuck that lightbulb? Remove the financial incentive and you remove some of the best and brightest from the field.

But we have to make things better for the bottom 60%, and less good for the 1-5%.

Even if our leaders and the greedy cunts on top don't want to out of the goodness in their hearts, they need to so the masses don't rise up and murder them and their families. Eventually, people will stop fighting with one another and look upwards to see whose been slinging all the shit onto them.

I don't think the government is 100% paid for, but Republicans certainly are

I think it is 100% paid for. It's just so blatantly obvious. They don't even really hide their corruption. It's out in the open. Nobody actually works for us. If they happen to help us, fine, but really they only care about us during election cycles.

I'd rather we were a bit more Democratic Socialist.

I'd like to give Capitalism a try. Remove Wall St's influence. Apply criminal charges to corporate fraud and crimes. Put real incentives in place for corporations to do right by their employees and communities. Set real boundaries between the corporate world and the political one. Then see where we end up.

[Leisher]

And with the most serious possible tone here...

Could you imagine if our elected leaders could sit down and have discussions like this? Perhaps this country wouldn't be trending downward.

A little give, a little take, listening then talking, understanding, countering but always being open to being wrong, etc.

Nope. We get "MY TEAM OR FUCK EVERYTHING!!!!!!"

[TheCatt]

Without me looking at the graph, whose wages? Is that an across the board thing that includes all the C suite people? I never find those to be accurate. The top end tends to too heavily skew the results.

No, it was median (50th percentile) income.

Also, considering that home affordability requires a 6 figure income now (What was it? A 55% across the board increase in the avg wage?), I'm not sure we're looking at the right things if we're just focusing on wages vs inflation? Right? Perhaps we need to change the measuring stick?

What % of people want to buy a house each year though ? 5%? 6%?

s. I really don't know why massive corporations have decided to buy up a lot of houses, but it's an area where I think the government stooges should be concerned.

They have a shit ton of money to invest, and decided to go here.

'Splain the transfer payments please.

Take money from rich, give to un-rich.

I've always been about EVERYONE paying their fair share, but I will always be against breaking the rich.

They are soooooo far from being broken. 4 decades of Reaganomics were a complete failure for equality.

Has natural gas pricing gone way up over the past decade or so? My last house was electric and expensive. (Another bill that I think is artificially high.)

3 years ago it went up dramatically... ($8-10/mmbtu) but it has returned to normal levels this year ($3/mmbtu, so a massive drop). 40% of electricity in the US is from natural gas as well.

I still need to be convinced on minimum wage. As corps in CA just proved, everyone who said the cost would be passed directly to the consumer were right. I don't see how raising prices on consumers helps working consumers.

Cuz if you earn $7.25, you can't buy shit. If you earn $15, you can, even if prices go up 5-10% due to the wage increases.

I'd like to give Capitalism a try. Remove Wall St's influence

Does not compute. Those are completely opposing statements.

Apply criminal charges to corporate fraud and crimes. Put real incentives in place for corporations to do right by their employees and communities. Set real boundaries between the corporate world and the political one.

So, yeah, that's not capitalism.

Nope. We get "MY TEAM OR FUCK EVERYTHING!!!!!!"

Yeah. And it's everywhere. Our neighborhood HOA election has exploded (among I assume, like 3-5% of the neighborhood, but JFC they're vocal). People are making the stupidest statements.

[GORDON]

I think it is 100% paid for. It's just so blatantly obvious. They don't even really hide their corruption. It's out in the open. Nobody actually works for us. If they happen to help us, fine, but really they only care about us during election cycles.

The other day on reddit someone made a "I'm sick of people saying BOTH SIDES are just as bad when it's obvious the republicans are full of fascists."

My response was:

Both sides have swapped power over the last 50 years, but both sides have ignored the major problems that are hurting Americans. Health care is unaffordable, college is unaffordable, housing is unaffordable, the cities are full of homeless encampments, incomes haven't kept up with cost of living, illegal immigrants are getting bussed to sanctuary cities and then turned around because there was no sanctuary to be had. Both sides are turning America into a shithole. I don't give a shit if one side is full of "fascists," both sides are either evil, or incompetent.

It never got above one karma point so i suspect is was shadow-deleted.

[GORDON]

Also, considering that home affordability requires a 6 figure income now (What was it? A 55% across the board increase in the avg wage?), I'm not sure we're looking at the right things if we're just focusing on wages vs inflation? Right? Perhaps we need to change the measuring stick?

This is what I meant when I said earlier, "Maybe we need to look at a new set of data, because the current set looks, smells, and feels like bullshit."

[GORDON]

Interesting. Our gas bills around here were ridiculously small, and two houses ago we used gas for all heat and cooking. Has natural gas pricing gone way up over the past decade or so? My last house was electric and expensive. (Another bill that I think is artificially high.)

Our cost of natural gas doubled in the last year, bcuz 3.2%.

[TheCatt]

Our cost of natural gas doubled in the last year, bcuz 3.2%.

Good news, it's already back to 3 years ago prices. Maybe lower.

[GORDON]

Not here. It hasn't gone down.

[Cakedaddy]

I cannot afford to buy a house right now. I mean, I could, but I don't feel like getting butt fucked without lube

So, as long as they use lube. . . .

You're just spoiled. I don't buy candy bars any more because they used to be $.50. I'm not paying $1.25+ for a candy bar. You got spoiled by all the near free money for years now. Prices went up, and now you don't want to buy because it used to cost 'this much'. When I bought my first house, our interest rate was 7.5%. I also bought in a desirable area, so I paid a premium for that. In other words, when I bought my first house, it was much like buying a house now. But, it didn't hurt because I had not seen better. That just how much it cost.

People are making more. I can't hire people at the same rates I used to. Not even close. I do see more people looking for work now though. I'm hoping I'll be able to pay less again soon. I know that sounds bad. . . but I haven't raised my prices, so I feel justified in saying that.

You can't keep saying "Prices are high so everything is fucked" and ignore the part where income is also up. If YOU'RE income isn't up, well, that seems like a personal problem!

But yes, also corporate greed.

You don't like self checkouts? Well, I blame all you schmucks who returned your cart for them. They thought "Oh, they'll do that? Lets see what else we can get them to do!!"
The other night, I had 40+ items in my cart. Not a single register was open other than self checkouts. I ran out of room to keep everything in the bagging area. No idea how much longer it took for me to do it myself. No. I did NOT return my cart.
Recently, when I couldn't get 'digital coupons' to apply, had to get help. They had a bit of an attitude as they explained what I did wrong. I said "Sorry. I missed cashier training day and didn't know how to do it."
I fucking hate shopping any more. I miss the good old days.

Catt thinking the democrats will save us is scary. Thinking ANYONE in Washington is there to help, is scary. Picking the lesser of two shit bags is stupid. Because the shitbags just keep getting shittier.

[TheCatt]

Not here. It hasn't gone down.

I mean, it has, but the question is how often your utility changes the fuel source price to account for it.

[TheCatt]

tldr: people are dumb.

[Leisher]

Apologies for my delay on responding. I wanted to take the weekend off from any deeper conversations.

No, it was median (50th percentile) income.

Asking seriously. Focusing right at that mark gives them a good look at the correct percentage of Americans?

What % of people want to buy a house each year though ? 5%? 6%?

Good question. I'd bet it's higher now than in years past mainly because I think so many wannabe home buyers are stuck waiting out this nonsense. Buying now means:
1. You're an idiot.
2. You're rich and can eat the loss.
3. You are forced into a move for some reason. (Job, family issue, etc.)

They have a shit ton of money to invest, and decided to go here.

And that's fine, but now they're hurting the market and that's not as fine. What to do to fix it? I don't know.

Take money from rich, give to un-rich.

So socialism? Taking and giving come with their own very, very large set of problems.

They are soooooo far from being broken. 4 decades of Reaganomics were a complete failure for equality.

I don't completely blame Reagonomics. The concept is sound. The problem with it is that it relies upon people doing the right thing and actually letting money trickle down. We already had other forces in place ensuring that wasn't going to happen (remember in the 70s is when corporate profits and wages started separating in a massive way). Not to mention just pure, unadulterated greed.

Also, equality and economics are two words I'm not sure belong together? As long as the playing field is fair, opportunity is equal, and the people seeking equality are actually giving effort, then yes. However, I will ALWAYS be against handouts. We've seen the effects of handouts on 5-6 generations of entire families and it isn't pretty.

3 years ago it went up dramatically... ($8-10/mmbtu) but it has returned to normal levels this year ($3/mmbtu, so a massive drop). 40% of electricity in the US is from natural gas as well.

Why do Ds want it gone? Climate change?

Cuz if you earn $7.25, you can't buy shit. If you earn $15, you can, even if prices go up 5-10% due to the wage increases.

That's a fair point, but it's still a very small part of the puzzle. No, adults should not be in minimum wage jobs. Sorry. Get your fucking life together. Get some skills. There are free programs everywhere. There's a reason those jobs pay shit. It's because the level of skills and labor expect in return are going to be shit. The people who have those jobs are unskilled, unqualified, unreliable, and are more concerned with other things than providing good work or customer service.

This is one of those issues where I think both sides make good arguments, but neither is providing the correct solution.

Does not compute. Those are completely opposing statements.

Disagree. Wall St's current influence over corporations is not what was intended. C Suite salaries weren't originally tied to quarterly profits and stock prices. DEI (I forget the acronym that begins with E...) scorecards weren't a thing and fly right in the face of both capitalism and Wall St, yet there it is being used. And so on.

So, yeah, that's not capitalism.

Sure, but Democratic Socialism is neither Democratic nor Socialism. We've seen what works and what doesn't. Why can't we make changes?

The other day on reddit someone made a "I'm sick of people saying BOTH SIDES are just as bad when it's obvious the republicans are full of fascists."

I am so fucking over "this side" and "that side". They both suck ass and neither does shit for us. If you truly believe X is better than Y, you're in a cult or monumentally oblivious to all evidence proving you are wrong.

You're just spoiled. I don't buy candy bars any more because they used to be $.50. I'm not paying $1.25+ for a candy bar. You got spoiled by all the near free money for years now. Prices went up, and now you don't want to buy because it used to cost 'this much'. When I bought my first house, our interest rate was 7.5%. I also bought in a desirable area, so I paid a premium for that. In other words, when I bought my first house, it was much like buying a house now. But, it didn't hurt because I had not seen better. That just how much it cost.

I understand this line of thought, but I also hate it. It makes very big assumptions about both the buyer and the market.

First of all, I get prices increasing and I still buy candy bars. Second, all the real estate experts say that prices are bullshit right now. Buyers should just ignore them and pay "whatever it costs"? That's just being a bad consumer.

How can you say "Don't return your carts", but also "Pay whatever it costs" in the same breath? Ok, blame someone for self-checkout for returning their cart, but it's your fault prices are so high.

You can't keep saying "Prices are high so everything is fucked" and ignore the part where income is also up. If YOU'RE income isn't up, well, that seems like a personal problem!

You guys need to stop saying income is up. It's a complete bag of shit. It's been posted here more than once and reported on every news site that incomes need to climb around 55% for housing to become affordable again.

Income being "up" doesn't mean shit if it isn't keeping pace with everything else, and it's not.

Ultimately, and to summarize everything and maybe get rid of the numerous bullet points, perhaps we're all correct, and thus, we really do need new measurements? It's pretty clear that the public has no confidence in the economy and are reporting their money isn't going as far. Meanwhile, all of the traditional stuff Catt points out says everything is fine. Can those two things be true at the same time? Doubtful.

[TheCatt]

Asking seriously. Focusing right at that mark gives them a good look at the correct percentage of Americans?

Pretty much. It's a common approach for this type of data, since mean (average) data is so distorted by the tails (super rich in this case).

What to do to fix it? I don't know.

If you want lower prices, you have to reduce demand somehow.

So socialism? Taking and giving come with their own very, very large set of problems.

I mean, we already do it. Why not more?

I don't completely blame Reagonomics. The concept is sound. The problem with it is that it relies upon people doing the right thing and actually letting money trickle down.

Why would anyone let money trickle down? "Greed is good" "invisible hand" People rarely like to part with their money.

(remember in the 70s is when corporate profits and wages started separating in a massive way). Not to mention just pure, unadulterated greed.

High corporate taxes, high individual tax rates for rich, and stronger unions. Reaganomics attacked all 3.

Why do Ds want it gone? Climate change?

Yeah, it releases carbon into the air, like any other fossil fuel, but much cleaner than coal, etc.

Sure, but Democratic Socialism is neither Democratic nor Socialism. We've seen what works and what doesn't. Why can't we make changes?

Have we? And, it's inbetween, thus the name. The people in those societies sure seem to like it.

You guys need to stop saying income is up. It's a complete bag of shit. It's been posted here more than once and reported on every news site that incomes need to climb around 55% for housing to become affordable again.

Incomes have gone up, and I say it, because it's true. Don't confuse houses with housing. House affordability is what that is talking about. Rent prices have actually gone down this year, for example, and are not up 55%.

Income being "up" doesn't mean shit if it isn't keeping pace with everything else, and it's not.

That's why I posted data on real (inflation adjusted) income, not nominal.

I'm not saying everything is fine. I'm saying things are generally fine, and there are definitely places where people are feeling pain economically. But no one's trying to solve it.