Our TT lineup & strategy

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Leisher
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Post by Leisher »

A long post I worked on during a vendor conference call today...enjoy...

This applies mostly to Cake, Gordo, and myself as we're the primary 3v3 players, but can apply to our other teammates as well if they fill in for someone.

Let me start by saying that if we get our three primary picks: Teemo, Singed, and Amumu, I think our win percentage is probably 85-90%. No question that we play those champs well, and they work well together.

Now moving away from that team comp, I think we have two problems on TT that prevent us from skyrocketing up into Silver or Gold:
1. Early feeding.
2. Team comps that aren't Teemo, Singed, and Amumu.

Early Feeding

It's a big problem for us in 3s and 5s. I have some thoughts on how we can rectify it, and although I'll be focusing on 3s, I think 2-6 make sense for 5s too.

1. Change the first fight to a first gank.

This can depend on who we're facing, of course, but generally the meta on TT means we're the squishy team, so why would we choose to face two or three bruisers on an equal playing field? Makes no sense.

Instead, when we know the other team has better early game damage, health or stuns, let's setup for a gank. But where?
-The bottom middle bush is out because it's soooo obvious. It's also hard to pull a successful gank off from there.
-Middle jungle is where the team fight occurs, so no gank can happen there.
-Top lane bushes are pretty obvious too, and shame on us for ever falling for these ganks. If you don't see the enemy team on the map when the game starts, they're either in the bot middle or top lane bushes. Stay away from them...

None of those are perfect. So it got me to thinking about where a better gank could occur, and I figured it out. There's two possibilities:

-Come down from the spider.

So we'd head up there pre-game, and wait until someone came to play top, then we come down behind that person. The trick being that we'd need to get close enough to stun them or they'll run towards our base, and then eventually to mid where their team will be coming to help. We could offset this by having someone come down from the other side too, but we'd lose that person's additional damage. (It'd have to be me or Amumu (in our typical team comp) as this tactic would really require a successful flip by Singed to bring them back. It would also be wise for Singed to play as a safety in this gank. They will still see him, but if he positions himself farther towards their base, if they flash, he can then flip them back immediately. Know what I mean?

-The grass below their top turret.

Now follow me here.

If we hurry up and shop pre-game, we can run top, through the spider's lair, towards their top turret, and hopefully enter the weeds there without the turret seeing us...? How do we test this? How do we know if we're spotted by that turret or not?

Point being, if we can get into those weeds without being seen, we have a huge advantage. Rarely does anyone go into those weeds. You almost forget they're there. Why would anyone ever go into them during the pre-game?

However, once the game starts, and we're not on the map, where will they expect the gank to come from? Bot mid bush or top mid bushes, right? Or they'll think we were in that jungle bush. Nobody would ever expect us to be that deep into their territory.

From there we can easily gank their top, perhaps catch their jungler, etc.

Anyway, I figure perhaps those might be worth trying.

2. Slow down the pace of the early game.

This is our biggest flaw as a team, and something I know I'm actively trying to correct. I think more of us need to work on it though.

We need to work more on just last hitting during the early game. Keep the minions as close to us as possible. When they begin to creep into dangerous territory for us, it's time to shop, heal, gank, jungle, etc.

Point being, let's not push the lanes so far early and get out of position. Let them do the pushing and put themselves out of position. Or, as often happens to us, push so far that they then have nothing to do and are left waiting until the minions get pushed back.

3. Angles into fights.

Another one of our team's huge flaws. We run into fights from different directions, which makes it very hard to coordinate attacks, but makes it very easy for our enemy to single us out.

This happens most often at the altar as top runs down, and bot runs up. Two or three bruisers standing with (or without) a damage dealer are going to immediately charge at the most vulnerable person. They're not going to stand there and allow us to attack at range.

This tactic is one of the dumbest things we do, and it needs to end. I'd rather give up the altar for 90 seconds than give them 1 or more kills.

Instead of trying to converge on the altar from multiple sides, we need to just accept that they out maneuvered us at that moment, and move to a safe location because we know they'll come off that altar trying to gank. Or if we're in position, jump on their altar. The turrets and nexus are the goals, not the altars. The altar is only good for 90 seconds, and isn't worth a death.

4. Live to fight another day, and don't chase.

Another dumb way we die a lot is diving into fights that are lost. For example, the fights at altars where we come into it from different directions sometimes led to one or more of us trying to save our doomed teammate. It's pointless and gives them a massive advantage.

We've got to get better at recognizing a fight that is lost and make our casualties more acceptable. Less deaths equals less money for them, and more resistance in their way instead of free farm/pushing.

5. Communication

This will always be on the list of things to improve because it's the most important aspect of good teamwork.

There was a moment last night in one of the games where they were missing, and all of a sudden they appeared. I said, "here they come" or something, and the next thing I knew Gordo and Cake were fighting all three of them at the health spawn in the jungle, while I was hitting their top turret. The reason I point this moment out is because I heard "frustration" (I think we won this game too) as if I was not where I should have been.

This is a perfect case of us not properly relaying our plans. Nobody told me we were prepping for a fight in the middle (If we even were). Not sure why we'd want to as they had the advantage at that time. Also, going back to #3 above, I was cut off, and the last thing to squishiest guy in the game needs to do is approach the entire enemy team from an angle that puts his team on the other side of the enemy. The fight started without me even knowing, again because I didn't know that was the plan (was it?), and I verbally reacted to it with a "holy shit" or something. However, in game I continued farming and pushing because of #4. The fight was already over, one of you was dead immediately, and me heading in wasn't changing shit except maybe giving them another kill.

In another game, Cake mentioned that I needed to tell Gordo that I was continuing to chase. I figured it was self explanatory considering I was chasing an injured enemy, we had eliminated one other, and the third was just spawning, but he's right. I should have told Gordo to follow me, even though in that specific instance I don't think either of us was catching her.

Anyway, let's talk. Assume nothing. I plan to chat a bit more about overall strategy during games, and yes Cake, you need to call out targets. (You're good at that.) We need more voices now since our leader abandoned us... (Yes, it's a Scooty joke!)

6. Protect your squishies.

This is becoming a major thing on TT. We're facing more and more teams who are walking right past our tanks and hitting our damage dealers, whether that be Teemo, Vayne, or Ryze. How do we constantly harass one another about picking targets, and focusing their damage dealers, and then go into fights, and not protect our damage dealers?

And yes, I'm biased as fuck here, but that doesn't make this point any less valid.

During the game we steamrolled our opponents last night, there were two brutally obvious, and back to back examples of this, and against a better team or in a more competitive game, the fights probably wouldn't have ended as positively for us.

Not making a big deal of this, but it's something that needs to be said.

Team comps that aren't Teemo, Singed, and Amumu.

Ok, my thoughts here are simple and will be backed up with facts provided by our stats (TT stats ONLY).

When we have Teemo, Singed, and Amumu, we're the shit. We don't lose often, and if we do, it's only because we fed early.

But what do we do when we don't have that combo? We lose far, far more often.

Singed is 10-5
Teemo is 11-11
Amumu is 8-5
Maoki is 4-6
Ryze is 3-11

It wouldn't show me Vayne's but in the last 4 games in my match history she was .500.

Now I'm sure Gordo is getting a little irritated at the moment because he thinks I'm about to destroy Ryze, but settle down big fella, I'm not.

What do I CONSTANTLY say about our lineup when Ryze is in there? We're too squishy. I firmly believe that to be true.

Ryze isn't 3-11 because Gordo completely sucks with him. He's 3-11 because our team gets rolled early because we don't do enough damage and can't sustain.

The meta is TT is currently all about bruisers. Putting two damage dealers on our team with a tank leaves us vulnerable, imho.

So here's what I propose: We go into a game shooting for Teemo, Singed, Amumu, but depending on what happens we switch so that we guarantee ourselves only one squishy player in a game, MAX.

So if I get Teemo, then Gordo picks Volibear or Nasus instead of Ryze.

If Singed is banned, odds are greater that I'll need to go with a bruiser or Vayne (due to her escapability, she'd still be viable), and Gordo can run with Ryze if he chooses.

I don't know, it's something that been driving me nuts, and I'd like to try avoiding the Ryze/Teemo teamup on TT, and see if that doesn't drive up our win percentage.

Finally, Cake is a very competent tank/bruiser with Maoki and Amumu, however I think he needs to work a few more champs into the mix, just in case.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
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Post by Cakedaddy »

I was going to point out the ineffectiveness of Ryze as well. Our win percentage doesn't go down when we don't have a Teemo/Amumu/Singed team. It goes down when we don't have Singed. Gordon is VERY dependent on having Singed. I love you Gordon. But when you aren't Singed, your utility in any game goes WAY down. But I accept that and wouldn't have mentioned any of this if we weren't already talking about it. But it would be AWESOME if you could develop a second 'main'. I have no idea who it should be. I would recommend someone you enjoy playing more than how it might help the team. Karma might be the best fit for the team and help the most, but you will HATE playing her and then never master her. Find a champ you love almost as much as Singed.

I might check out Kayle. Both for TT and SR. Can Kayle jungle?! If not, she's a good mid/support. I took Mau Kai after Amumu for his stun, and because I played a good amount with him back in the day. I bought Shaco too. Not a bruiser, but could bring some ward action when Teemo's not available. Have played around two games with him so far. No live games. How about Urgot!?!
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Post by GORDON »

So let me get this straight: I need to perfect another champion, because we don't always get Singed. Yet the one I am working on, Ryze, doesn't do as well as Singed, so I should stop trying to get better with Ryze and play a champ that I know as well as Singed?

Ok.

Once I have 3 items built, Ryze starts hitting hard. i am in a hurry at the moment and don't have time to calculate how much damage I can drop on target in one second at level 15, but it's a lot.
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Post by GORDON »

I have another minute now, so allow me to add:

I agree with the "too much feeding." thing is, it usually aint me doing it, even if i am playing Ryze. USUALLY. typically, 80% of my deaths come in the last half of the game, after the other team has been been fed at the TKV buffet. So yeah, when i encounter a fed enemy for the first time in a game and they flatten me and i look and say,"ah, he already has 7 kills..." i dont think there is a character in the roster that i can play that can fix that.

My suggestions:

1. Indulge me and let me work on Ryze a while longer while the team works on feeding less. I think there's a lot of progress to be made.

2. I will start getting the Deathfire as my 2nd or 3rd item, and actually force myself to remember to use it. That will add another few hundred damage to the RYZESTRIKE. I estimate, by mid game, ryze is doing 400something damage with his stun, another 400 with his 3 seconds refreshing Q, and another couple hundred with each strike of the bouncy balls. His ult adds 50% splash damage and a slowdown. Ryze is a sledge hammer when not facing a fed enemy.

Or if you want i will start pracing a bruiser like pantheon or jax for when singed gets banned.

Ryze is still a good singed counter, though.




Edited By GORDON on 1364940878
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Post by Cakedaddy »

Nope. Not saying you can't play Ryze. Make Ryze that champ. That's fine. But I would request that you stop picking Singed all together and keep practicing Ryze. Let's get the training over with.
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Post by GORDON »

Is Deathfire even available on TT?
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Post by Cakedaddy »

Yes
Leisher
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Post by Leisher »

Sorry, I forgot about this thread until I saw it tonight.
So let me get this straight: I need to perfect another champion, because we don't always get Singed. Yet the one I am working on, Ryze, doesn't do as well as Singed, so I should stop trying to get better with Ryze and play a champ that I know as well as Singed?


No. I'm saying Teemo and Ryze are too squishy together. If you want to be Ryze, I'll work on a bruiser. Just understand that you then become the damage dealer. It's a totally different role.

I agree with the "too much feeding." thing is, it usually aint me doing it, even if i am playing Ryze. USUALLY. typically, 80% of my deaths come in the last half of the game, after the other team has been been fed at the TKV buffet. So yeah, when i encounter a fed enemy for the first time in a game and they flatten me and i look and say,"ah, he already has 7 kills..." i dont think there is a character in the roster that i can play that can fix that.


"Well, see, you say that..."
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
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Post by GORDON »

Leisher wrote:
I agree with the "too much feeding." thing is, it usually aint me doing it, even if i am playing Ryze. USUALLY. typically, 80% of my deaths come in the last half of the game, after the other team has been been fed at the TKV buffet. So yeah, when i encounter a fed enemy for the first time in a game and they flatten me and i look and say,"ah, he already has 7 kills..." i dont think there is a character in the roster that i can play that can fix that.
"Well, see, you say that..."
I almost always keep track.

We played 2 games tonight.

First game, the other team had something like 5 kills, only 1 was me.

Second game, when the enemy team had 10 kills, only 2 were me.

That is pretty typical.

I'm not calling anybody out, I don't know what is going on down there. That game with Kat tonight.... she was going top to bottom so fast so yeah, I guess me not calling mia immediately costs a few lives. But Cake, before, said it is our job to watch the minimap to keep track of those mia's, so maybe it isn't my fault. It is Cake's fault for not keeping an eye on the minimap. Hell... there was one time I said that she was still up top, and before I had the sentence done she was hitting bottom lane. What the hell.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
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