Twisted Treeline Strategy

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Post by Leisher »

I'm doing this for Stranger who gets frustrated with TT, and I need him to feel more comfortable there since only three of us are reliably on lately, and (non-Scooty) Hitler sucks.

I'll cover the lanes first and then an overall strategy.

Top -
1. Typically the carry, although sometimes it's a counter to the carry.
2. Top is responsible for keeping their turret alive, pushing, ganking bot, and jungling.
3. Preferably, Gordo and I would like to top not take the spawn on our side of the map, just above bot lane. Cake disagrees with this and thinks top needs to be as fed as possible. I see both arguments, and think both could be right. I think it needs to be situational. If top is doing fine, they shouldn't farm that spawn. If they're desperate, they should farm it.
4. Call mia when appropriate.
5. Get to dragon ASAP. In fact, when I'm top I do my best to ward dragon for the team.
6. Don't feed. Even as Tryndamere I'd sometimes avoid fighting if the odds weren't stacked in my favor. Let them push and be out of position. Hit them when you're ready, and be careful about chasing. Focus your target, but pay attention to your escape options. One of my favorite escape points is the bush above THEIR dogs/golems spawn. If I run into the jungle, I'll head there instead of back to my base where they expect me to go. By the time they head my way I've already recalled.
7. Top is the damage dealer, so unless you're facing 3 AD carries, don't buy armor.

Bot -
1. Typically a tank and a counter to the carry (or Teemo).
2. Bot is responsible for keeping their turret alive, pushing, ganking top when applicable, supporting ganks from top, and warding red.

Jungle -
1. We've seen teams that have two laners, and a jungler, but it's rare. It just doesn't work very well, although we can do it if Teemo gets fed. He can then hold bot (against certain duos) thanks to shrooms while the other two farm everything else.

Strategies:
1. TT is SR, but compacted. Same rules apply.
a. Don't chase.
b. Fight from under turrets whenever possible.
c. Champion kills don't win the game. (Until later...)
d. Try not to feed.
2. More so than SR, our aggressive nature, older twitch reflexes, and early game feeding is on display. That's why we find ourselves fighting from behind a lot. It's also why we win most of those games. Nobody turtles like us.
3. Don't kill their inhibitor early. Let ours die early. Why? Because it's a lot of free XP and money that is guaranteed to come right into our (or their) base and quickly.
4. When farming super minions heading into our base, try to do so within the base if we're way behind in lvls/gold. It's not as big a concern if things are even, but if you can be instapopped quickly, it's a concern. Yes, it gets them into our base, but if an emergency happens in there, your team can respond faster, and you can lure those minions into the spawn turret.
5. When playing from behind, patience and discipline are key. Settle in for the long fight. Stranger should be used to this as a Cleveland Browns fan. The strategy that wins is to farm when you can, stick close to home, fight as a team, and do so under your turrets. Even the best teams will have trouble breaking your lines.
6. Aces are wins. Even if ALL of your buildings are gone except for the Nexus, you can still win with an ace. Late game, any team can walk through turrets, but if someone is alive to defend, it's pretty difficult to do that, particularly under their spawn point. That's why killing 1-2 of them during their push means nothing. As the team on defense, we can't push out, especially if we're really hurt, 1-2 of us are dead, and/or minions are endangering our base.
7. Once we get an ace and all three of us are alive, 2 of us need to attack a lane, while the other kills minions. Preferably, the tank and one of the damage dealers. For example, when it's Nocturne, Teemo, and Singed, Noc and Singed typically do the attacking because of Teemo's attack speed and mushrooms. It's almost impossible for him to be overrun by minions. Repeat this strategy until victory.
8. If playing while ahead, which we also sometimes do, the key is to keep up pressure, and deny them farm. So don't kill those inhibitors until their turrets are gone. Then you can almost sacrifice two folks to knock down that middle turret. At that point, the game is essentially over barring a miracle.

I hope that explains a bit more of what the three of us who play TT all the time are talking about when we say "do this" or "don't do that".

No need to switch runes/masteries for TT versus SR. The only thing anyone should do is find a role:
-AD Carry top
-Tank bot
-Counterpick bot (or just a strong duo bot with characters that work together well like Blitz and Alistar.

I can see how TT would be frustrating, especially when jumping in with three guys who have a ton of experience and have a system. However, if you look at the strategies above, and see what we are doing, I think your fun level would skyrocket. Trust me, the first time you successfully turtle and then win against some shit talkers, you'll be hooked.

SR is awesome, and I honestly prefer it, but Hitler sucks. I cannot stand playing with strangers because almost without fail, they're terrible. Even if they're a decent player, they're usually not on the same page as us. I know I'm not alone in saying that TT with 2 teammates in chat > SR with 2 Hitlers.

Gordo, Cake, anything to add to the stuff above?




Edited By Leisher on 1346130023
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Post by GORDON »

The minions in the jungle that we hit from bottom lane MAINLY only applies when our turret is still standing. If we are getting pushed hard and lost that turret, then we won't be relying on that bottom jungle spawn for easy gold and XPs, so farm away.

I wonder if there is another strategy for "getting pushed hard" than to go defensive.

Maybe one of us gets pink eye and we hunt as a pack, take out their wards, and go guerrilla style. Once we go defensive, they own the jungle and farm a lot faster than we do. Maybe another solution is to make them blind on the map and knock them back on their heels.




Edited By GORDON on 1346153117
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Post by Leisher »

Traveling as a team is always an option, ditto for blinding them. The problem with that is what if they're traveling as a team, and what if they aren't using wards.

If you're on the defensive, typically you're out leveled and out itemed. Your three man group is going to lose to their three man group. Also, how often do we drop wards when we're winning? Not often. The only wards I see thrown down are Teemo's mushrooms. When we turtle, I assume other teams drop the need for wards too.

However, to be safe, if we start trying to gank, someone should have pink eye. It never occurred to me before, but if we're trying to crack some turtles, we should ward areas around their base to see when they leave. The bushes above their golem/dog spawn would be perfect to see if someone went to jungle or grab dragon.
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Post by GORDON »

Leisher wrote:Also, how often do we drop wards when we're winning? Not often. The only wards I see thrown down are Teemo's mushrooms.
Hey now. Them's fighting words. I've been buying wards like a motherfucker for the last couple weeks, at least 10 per game. I didn't last night as Nunu because I wasn't making any money.
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Post by Leisher »

I wasn't calling anyone out, it was just something I notice. If we're steam rolling someone, wards aren't a priority.
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Post by GORDON »

Leisher wrote:I wasn't calling anyone out, it was just something I notice. If we're steam rolling someone, wards aren't a priority.

If we are steamrolling, IF I think to buy wards, I plant them in the weeds near their entrance, maybe in the middle near their Nexus. But we usually don'[t bother... usually if we are in their base it is because we just got an ace and are pushing hard and there isn't time for wards.

But I buy a lot of wards through the game. I give teemo a pass because he has his mushrooms, but I wish everyone bought as many wards as I do. ;-)




Edited By GORDON on 1346164079
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Post by Leisher »

Well, let's be fair here.

Not only do I drop mushrooms everywhere I can, which aren't just wards, but also slow and damage the enemy, but I drop wards too. I just don't buy as many as you.

And Cake drops wards because his first item is Wriggle's which gives him a free ward every 3 minutes.

On a different note, within 12 hours I have been given the criticisms of "farm less" and "buy more wards", which is translated as "earn less money" and "spend more money". Some would say there's a political joke in there.
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Post by GORDON »

I don't know who is criticizing you about wards, I specifically said that I give teemo a pass because of his shrooms.
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Post by GORDON »

And just to get it out there, in my opinion I was the weak player in our TT last night. I just don't know Nunu very well in pvp, yet.
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Post by Leisher »

GORDON wrote:I don't know who is criticizing you about wards, I specifically said that I give teemo a pass because of his shrooms.
Sorry thought it had to me because the other guy is an AD Carry with a free ward every three minutes.
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Post by GORDON »

Leisher wrote:
GORDON wrote:I don't know who is criticizing you about wards, I specifically said that I give teemo a pass because of his shrooms.
Sorry thought it had to me because the other guy is an AD Carry with a free ward every three minutes.
I wasn't really talking about that one particular game. Just in general.
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Post by Leisher »

Well, you're in the TT thread calling folks out, and there's really only three of us that play TT since Stranger apparently prefers Hitler to TT.

One's an AD Carry, the other is Teemo.

Although, maybe you're talking about when the AD Carry is Treebeard? Hmmm....
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Post by GORDON »

Dude, I aint CALLING ANYONE OUT, I was just saying we need more wards.
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Post by Leisher »

Trollololololol

Isn't that what they say?

Sorry, I'm bored.




Edited By Leisher on 1346177536
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Post by GORDON »

yeah i'll lollololololl you
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Post by Leisher »

BTW, I'm just assuming right now that we aren't playing until Cake is back in town due to his hotel internet and Stranger's aversion to TT.

I'll be on playing Fallout: New Vegas if things change though.
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Post by Stranger »

Ok, its not that i don't like TT, but the traditional builds and strategies go out the window when you play TT. I spend all my time trying to think of builds and champs that fit into the SR meta.

To me i think that if your gonna send 2 champs bottom then one of them should be the traditional support that doesn't get minion kills and the AD carry goes bottom and gets all the farm, just like the bot lane in SR. But supports don't seem to fit the TT game.

I think its kinda pointless to send two champs bottom that are fighting over the farm, but again, thats doesn't seem to be the case in TT. Most enemy team comps are hard hitting damage dealers that are more 1v1 type champs. It seems that if your not able to deal a significant amount of damage then your just a waste to your team.

Then comes the top lane in TT, This champ needs to be somewhat tanky but be able to jungle at the same time. And also have the ability to gank when needed. At least thats my perspective on that lane, but maybe im wrong. I have had some pretty good success with Hecarim up top because he seems to fit all them roles pretty well. But honestly ive seen everything work in some way or another in that lane, AP, AD carries, tanks whatever. I guess TT confuses me sometime.

I just prefer the defined roles that im acustomed to in SR, i know that not all of us are on all the time and TT just makes sence cause there are only 3 of us. Personally i don't buy into the "Hitler" thing you all like to refer too cause i've played plenty of solo que games including almost 40 ranked (with a winning record) and i've had plenty of teams that work very well together. You've gotta understand that when there are 4 of us that one person has to fit in with "OUR" way of playing. I think if any of us were thrown into a 4 man premade we would prolly look out of place too. Actually i've seen many times where our "Hitler" has carried us.

I guess i just don't want us to be afraid of trying SR when there are only 3 of us. Yeah, maybe Leisher will have to AP mid, or Gordo will have to Jungle, or I'll have to AD carry.. So what! thats how you learn the rolls, and in return learn what your teammates are thinking in certain situations.

It is well know that Riot balances the game around SR. Its the format all the tournaments are played. I've read many threads of people complaining about how unbalanced TT is and that its just an afterthought to Riot. Sure you can learn how to play your champs and get used to teamfighting there but i think alot of our bad habits may come from playing TT. And i think i could safely say that 60% of your guys' wins have come from TT where i would say that 80% of mine have come from SR. Its just a different game and i like to revolve my builds, strategy and playstyle around it.

Don't get me wrong, i like when we play 3v3 as a diversion. I like playing the game in general, i like to have fun, thats all i really care about in the end. But i'm prolly not gonna play my best games there cause of my lack of experience.
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Post by GORDON »

Stranger wrote:Personally i don't buy into the "Hitler" thing you all like to refer too cause i've played plenty of solo que games including almost 40 ranked (with a winning record) and i've had plenty of teams that work very well together. You've gotta understand that when there are 4 of us that one person has to fit in with "OUR" way of playing. I think if any of us were thrown into a 4 man premade we would prolly look out of place too. Actually i've seen many times where our "Hitler" has carried us.
I really have to disagree with your belief that hitler doesn't exist.

Easily 75% of the time we play with a random 5th, or a random 3rd on TT, not only do they fail to conform to the style of the rest of the team, but they get bossy, they keep jungling when team fighting has started, are usually whiny, and usually spamming surrender requests, and they often feed a lot and you ALWAYS hear, "OMG wtf lag," and if we lose they are the first ones out with the "bg, noob team." I think 75% is a conservative estimate, but I wouldn't want to exaggerate.

The worst thing about playing with people in online games is the other people. This is why we will never get a stable 5-man team, but we keep trying. Leisher will never play with other people, and I will rarely play with random people because I don't want the headache they give me. Cakedaddy isn't even on the grid any more, it seems.
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Post by GORDON »

As for your observation that peeps don't seem to play heavy support on TT, and instead invariably choose heavy damage dealers, I find that to be interesting. You may be on to something there. Support characters with AOE benefits are maximized when you have a 5-man team, it is wasted when they are only buffing 2 people on TT.
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Post by Leisher »

Ok, you mashed a lot of different topics into one post there. Let me try to pick them out one at a time...

(Sit down and grab a snack because this is going to get long.)

I'm going to get the most sensitive one out of the way first, and please don't get pissed, but I think since you spoke the truth, you deserve truth back, and not some BS.

Solo queue -

Success in solo queue is a misconception. You refer to the LoL forums as a credible source, so I'll point out that this is a common statement made there.

Solo queue is a roll of the dice. An indisputable FACT of LoL is that 5 people in comm who play together often will rout 5 strangers that aren't in comm. That's why when you solo queue, you aren't getting putting up against a 5 man premade, which is the real LoL.

A win in solo queue means you meshed with your group of strangers better than the enemy strangers did. Or that you got lucky and didn't have a troll on your team. Or that someone on your team didn't half ass it because they didn't get the character or lane they wanted. Or that someone didn't get stuck in a role they suck at. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Have you done Tribunal yet? Ranked solo queue is where 90% of those reports come from... (Seriously)

To give you a better example (hell, the best example), Scooty has success in solo queue. In fact, he dominates games. This isn't just his word, Cake has watched him. However, how do you feel about Scooty as a teammate in our 5 man team when we're playing the standard meta? He's a good player, but he can suck in a team. He's a lone wolf who ignores team fights, rarely plays defense, doesn't talk in comm, doesn't ping on ganks, etc. However, he has a lot of success in solo queue...

Ranked solo queue is the Twisted Treeline of ranked LoL games.

Just like TT, at the end of the day, solo queue is meaningless. No tournaments are being held for the best solo queue players. LoL is based on SR, and SR is a 5v5 map.

That all being said, please understand that this is not me saying "You suck". I think you're a good player, so do the other folks we play with (truth!). However, I do not think saying, "I do good in solo queue" is any sort of proof as to your skill. If it is, then Scooty is the best player on our team.

Last point on this, if you play support in solo queue willingly, you're a needle in a haystack, and that probably does contribute to your success there. One of the biggest complaint about solo queue is that nobody wants to play support.

Hitler -

More so than in any other game, one person on your team can affect your team's success.

"Hitler" has become a running joke nickname for our random 5th. We don't honestly believe that every loss we suffer with a random 5th is their fault. However, we HAVE lost a bunch of games where our random 5th was the reason or a contributing factor.

Please remember that we post long discussion threads about our play or sit online after games and talk about where we can improve. If we thought we were perfect, those things wouldn't happen. Point being, we don't use Hitler as an excuse.

However, more often than not, our random 5th has not meshed with our team. This comes after we sit and wait for them to pick their character and role. We're letting them pick exactly who they want to play and where, so if they fail, it's that much worse.

I don't envy those players coming into a 4 man premade, but there is some responsibility on their part to get on the same page as us. (Scooty's constant fighting with them doesn't help matters...) Seriously, it's easier as a solo queue player to get put on a team of all randoms, then a team of premades.

We get some good ones, but I do not agree with your assessment that we get carried by many. In fact, I think that's flat out wrong. I remember us being carried by a few, but that's very rare. In fact, I really only remember one game where we were blown away by how good our random 5th was, and basically just followed their lead. I think that game was pre-Stranger though...?

Some get good scores, but are horrible team players. That jungling Master Yi we had recently KS everything and would avoid team fights, then started feeding at the end.

Some simply suck. It happens. I really don't hate those folks. Still, at the time of the loss, you tend to be irritated.

It's the people with negative attitudes that made us come up with the "Hitler" nickname. The ones who type "gg" 5 minutes into the game, blame people for their failures in ALL chat, lone wolf, spam surrender, etc. We seem to get a LOT of these types of people.

Still, Cake's friend list is full of randoms who we have played well with, and we do make efforts to invite them to games.

And just FYI, the stuff above applies now when we're playing the meta, and when we weren't months ago. In your own words:
You've gotta understand that when there are 4 of us that one person has to fit in with "OUR" way of playing.


So if the random 5th comes in and doesn't follow our lead, and instead does something completely different...well, the fault lies with them. If the Cleveland Browns called you and said, "You're our new running back. Here's you playbook." Would you throw it on the ground, and run your own plays? Randoms who do that and randoms who bitch are Hitler. Randoms who just aren't good at the game, unfortunately also get that nickname because it's our joke.

However, here's the most important part of Hitler:
I would rather play with friends than with a random. I just happens that Cake, Gordo, and myself were usually the ones online, and TT happens to be a 3v3 game. We learned to work well together, so there is benefit to TT, but I'll hit that later.

Still, if Gordo agreed, I'd play SR with you and 2 randoms as long as we aren't abandoning TT. I don't think it be even remotely as fun, and would go in with that attitude to keep myself from being disappointed yet again by Hitler. (Exactly how I imagine you approach TT.) However, we'd probably win a lot because we wouldn't be facing other 4-5 man premades...

SR & Ranked games -

Nothing you said about SR is false. LoL is built around SR. The big money is in SR. TT and dominion are just other maps that don't really count.

In fact, I think we need to play SR in ranked. Seriously, at this point, what could it hurt? I think we've done tons of normal, why not play ranked? I'd like to head that direction.

However, not with Hitler. That's our big hang up right now. We need a 5th player. A reliable 5th player. Until we have a team that's on a lot more often, there will be hesitation about going into ranked because losing sucks. Losing when it actually counts sucks worse...

TT -

TT is unbalanced. We bitch about it often too. It seems the spawn turrets work randomly and at different distances up the stairs. However, none of that discounts the fun we've had there.

Are there some habits we've picked up there that are bad for SR?

Probably.

Like our early feeding. TT is a far more aggressive map, so that probably contributed to our aggressive ways big time.

I also believe we've learned good things.

For example:
We perfected turtling on that map. We brought that over to SR, and it's worked well for us as a team.

Also, playing bot on TT is just like playing bot on SR except more aggressive. Still, it's helped us familiarize ourselves with each other, characters, duos, tactics, etc.

TT is a fun map, as I'm sure Dominion is, but the only reason we've ever truly played it is because we wanted OUR team, not a team with randoms.

Alright, I think I covered all your points.

Summary -

In a team game, I believe playing with friends who are in comm with me is more fun and gives me a better chance to win.

If we had a reliable 5th or even 6th or 7th teammate, we probably would never play TT again.

We need reliable teammates if we ever want a prayer of advancing our game. Nobody wins the LoL championship with 4 people.
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