Twisted Treeline Strategy

For sooper seekrit League of Legends, <s>UO</s> <s>EVE</s> talk <s>and Diplomacy</s>.
GORDON
Site Admin
Posts: 54396
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 10:43 pm
Location: DTManistan
Contact:

Post by GORDON »

Leisher wrote:We need reliable teammates if we ever want a prayer of advancing our game. Nobody wins the LoL championship with 4 people.
That would be hilarious and impressive, though, if a 4-man team were so good that they could just pick up someone from the solo queue and incorporate them on the fly and still win tournaments.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
User avatar
Stranger
Posts: 3180
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:34 pm

Post by Stranger »

I'm just saying, i don't want solo que to be like a poison and should be avoided at all costs. I think it would be good for some of us to learn other champs and other rolls. And if you don't like what the other players are saying all ya gotta do is press TAB and click that little button all the way to the right of their name and they are muted. Hell do that before the game even begins and you never have to be offended by what others say.
WORLD CHAMPIONS!!
Leisher
Site Admin
Posts: 65250
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 9:17 pm
Contact:

Post by Leisher »

I'm just saying, i don't want solo que to be like a poison and should be avoided at all costs.


Nobody is saying "don't play solo queue". We're saying don't compare solo queue to premades, which is who we always play because we're premade.

I think it would be good for some of us to learn other champs and other rolls.


I agree 100% on the champs, and I think we need to start working towards ranked games. We're coming up on 1 year in game. We should have more than one champ and one role any of us can play at this point, right? Let's play in ranked games for at least an evening so we can see what we're going to face. However, we need a 5th...

And if you don't like what the other players are saying all ya gotta do is press TAB and click that little button all the way to the right of their name and they are muted. Hell do that before the game even begins and you never have to be offended by what others say.


Nothing to do with being offended. I've never heard anyone we play with say, "Oh my dear heavens, I've never heard such talk. That man is a barbarian, and does not belong around civilized people!"

You can't mute intentional feeding, spamming surrender, etc. (Although, telling Scooty to immediately mute the enemy team, and Hitler, might be a good idea...)
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
GORDON
Site Admin
Posts: 54396
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 10:43 pm
Location: DTManistan
Contact:

Post by GORDON »

yeah, not sure where "offended" came into it.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
User avatar
Cakedaddy
Posts: 8798
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 6:52 pm

Post by Cakedaddy »

Solo queue is ONLY good for practicing new champs. It is NOT a measure of one's skill, nor is it an argument to support playing with one or more hitlers. Success in solo queue RARELY translates into success in premade games.

It is FAR more common that a random fifth ruins the game than help us.

Strategy:

If top lane is running away in levels, they should continue to do that and farm ALL spawns within their reach. If they are staying even with their top lane enemy, then farming the lower jungle won't help them enough to upset bottom lane :-). In my opinion, lower jungle spawn shouldn't be used by top lane to 'catch up', it should only be used to further a runaway top. By runaway top, he's 3+ levels ahead of the entire enemy team, including enemy top. 1 or 2 levels isn't enough of an advantage. But, 3 levels ahead of top means 5+ ahead of bottom which means top is going to start steam rolling the enemy team and they are about to surrender. So, I will be leaving your PRECIOUS lower minion spawn alone.

We do play bottom lane similar to SR bottom lane. Teemo farms and Singed supports. That's just what we do. Many teams have success with all tanks, or some other wacky team comp. TT is more forgiving when breaking away from the SR meta.

Top must own top jungle. Must. If you don't, the enemy does and he'll run away with levels/gold. YOU get dragon as soon as it spawns. I consider getting dragon as important as scoring a kill or a turret. I make it a point to get dragon early, and to stay on him. It's top's job. Bottom wards/protects red jungle. So, as top, you need to be able to jungle while farming your minions. Wriggle's Lantern is a huge help. Red gloves are the first thing I build (before finishing shoes even). With the red gloves, I score way more last hits, clear the jungle faster and can take on the buff spawns in top jungle without losing too much health. Top should have a gank ability. Noc uses his ult for this. Champs that I see do really well up there: Fiora, Lee Sin, Trynd, Jax. I can handle most of the other ones. Unless it's a Lux that does 100 points of basic attack damage at level 3.

Over all, I don't really see a standard team comp on TT. I've seen many different setups win and lose.



As far as ranked games: I don't think we are ready. We have ONE team comp we can play on TT. We never vary from it. I feel like our TT games are only played to boost our win/loss record any more. "We need some wins. Noc, Tee, Sin." "Tonight sucked. I just want to win." Etc. We have other comps we've played, but have mastered none of them.

I feel slightly better going ranked on SR. But I think we need to be deeper. To be totally safe, we'd need to be 5 champs deep in all roles. 5 mid champs, 5 bottom support/carry, etc. I think, at the most, we have 3. Less in some slots. If we lost Veigar, Ziggs, Teemo and Singed due to bannings and enemy team picks, we'd be completely shut down. We are digging deep into our back up champ list at that point.

Ashe bottom with nunu, MF in mid, Skarner in jungle, Well, Scooty has no mains, so he wouldn't be affected at all by banning/enemy picks.

Ya, over all, I think we could easily be shut out of a game with just a couple 'main' losses.
GORDON
Site Admin
Posts: 54396
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 10:43 pm
Location: DTManistan
Contact:

Post by GORDON »

I'd be fine, I have a few champs I can do ok with.

It's you assholes who fall apart.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
Leisher
Site Admin
Posts: 65250
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 9:17 pm
Contact:

Post by Leisher »

I'd be fine, I have a few champs I can do ok with.

It's you assholes who fall apart.


If you were serious about that, I'd honestly suggest you be put into an asylum.

We can handle you switching to another champ, but you've got to be ready, and we can't just switch 10 seconds before the match starts.

For example, say you wanted to go GP up top tonight (if we're the only ones on), while Cake and I go Teemo/Maokai on the bot. No problem. Just plan it out before we jump into the game. Also, perhaps we plan the opening fight a bit differently since the Singed flip gives up a huge advantage that other champs don't have.

As TT stands, I just want to win. I have a lot of fun playing Teemo, and he's obviously one of the best champs on that map. No reason to practice other champs there unless it's specifically for TT. SR tactics simply don't apply.

Point being, don't expect me to rock Vayne on TT just because I play her on SR. Notice you don't see Corki much on TT, and he's far and away the most popular AD champ in tournaments. Ditto for Graves (#2).

TT is all about team metas and/or having fun with champs you're good playing with.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
User avatar
Cakedaddy
Posts: 8798
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 6:52 pm

Post by Cakedaddy »

Doing OK isn't good enough. You have to be good with your champs. You are a good Singed. You are a competent GP. But you are not good with him. Same with Nunu. Your skill level with GP and Nunu is no where near what it is with Singed. All other things being equal, we are a weaker team when you are GP or Nunu instead of Singed.
GORDON
Site Admin
Posts: 54396
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 10:43 pm
Location: DTManistan
Contact:

Post by GORDON »

The other night Leisher, Cake, and I got stomped 3 times in a row, hard.

Joking about it but assuming they were not cheating, we had a lot of heated words about how to not let that happen again.

Cake - The tree
Leisher - Teemo
Me - Singed

Playing against random "bruisers," as Leisher calls them. They knew how to play as a team, and we were getting stomped.

Notably, by Wukong, one of those games. Hitting us harder than any of us have ever seen Wukong hitting, before.

I had a thought, today.

Their Wukong was built as their AD guy, IIRC. At any rate, he was doing all of the killing. I had noted that Wukong was going stealth immediately as a fight was going to start, <s>focusing</s> forcing us to target one of their tanky guys, because that was all we could see. Then, when we were committed (We have to commit, otherwise we are just standing there as they converge on our Teemo), Wukong unstealths and targets Teemo and we can't retarget fast enough and that is pretty much the end of that fight getting aced. I have a feeling they might have been trying to stack themselves up, too, to make targeting specific peeps harder. I know I have had that problem before.

Now, in that instance, their damage dealer has stealth to keep him alive past the initial contact so he can go to work. In the past we had trouble with a "tank" teemo who had a teammate or two with the ability to whip protective/invulnerability spells on him for the opening of the fight, enabling him to stay alive beyond first contact, inflicting damage on our hard hitter the entire time while we dumped on him impotently.

So here is our problem with our standard lineup: Teemo can't go invis at will before a fight like Wukong can... he has to stand still for a couple seconds. This means he can't hunt with the group in a stealth capacity. Singed and Nunu and Moaki and Nocturne and Ashe and Volibear and anyone else Cake and I usually play have no kind of "give a buddy a shield" ability, beyond Nunu's buffs, which IIRC just increases attack speed mostly and gives a little armor. It isn't healing or blocking much incoming damage.

What I reckon this means if that we play a team with a single player that has a "give a buddy a shield" ability, and they know how to play as a team, they are going to beat our standard lineup.

THAT is what we have to do differently, which was the question asked and unanswered that night.

So, list of champs that have a shielding ability?

Morgana has one. That is all I can think of at the moment.




Edited By GORDON on 1354489034
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
User avatar
Cakedaddy
Posts: 8798
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 6:52 pm

Post by Cakedaddy »

Most champs just have a 'health boost' shield that can be popped with damage. Morganna's makes them immune to affects (stun, slow, etc) but not damage. And when enough damage is done, or time passed, it's gone. Most shields work like this. Except Kayle's. Kayle has an invulnerable shield she can throw.

I believe pink eye allows us to see stealthed champs, like WuKong. It might have helped if I had popped my stun/ullt (I was Amumu those games) right at the beginning. WuKong would have spent his stealth time stunned. His stealth cools down WAY faster than my ult though. I think pink eye is the winner though.

And I know this means I'm picking on Leisher again. But, when our game is built around keeping Teemo alive and killing stuff, well, then all talk revolves around him too. When the enemies are diving through our front lines and jumping on Teemo, there's not a whole lot you can do about it. The other player was Lee Sin who has an unstoppable charge as well. Every fight started with WuKong and Lee Sin both diving past us and locking on Teemo. Should Teemo have been back further? Should he pop his Woogie's shield right off at the beginning of every fight? (It cools down in 60 seconds) We also waited for them to start every fight then tried to react. But, we kind of had to. The alternative would be me initiating with my bandage. (I'm way better at landing it now) This stuns for a second or so. Gordon slows with his ability. But, they were tanky enough that we would not have bursted them dead before they were jumping past us and still killing Teemo. But over all, Teemo was constantly in danger. We can't stop them charging past us, so, in my opinion, we don't team fight them. And I don't think that means surrender, as was suggested. I think it means hit and run. We don't HAVE to wait for them to group up then take them on. That's what they wanted us to do, and we kept giving that to them. If they are all three pushing bottom, we push top. More often than not, another team will stop their push to respond. With mushrooms, we see them coming and can dodge. Etc. This is a better option than team fight/surrender in my opinion.

Our problems, as I saw them. WuKong and Lee Sin start the game WAY stonger than Teemo. This gives them easy farm and Teemo struggles to get any. This gives them an early game lead. This snowballed to the point where they could fight any of us with little risk. Rather than take champs with shields, etc. We needed a different strategy. Escort Teemo in to the jungle. Tank the jungle and let him get last hits there. We push a lane as a team, letting Teemo take last hits. We are splitting xp, but giving Teemo gold/items. We move between lanes, through the jungle, over and over. We hit the enemy a bunch when possible, but don't stay for the kill. They were tanky and could live long enough for their team mates to respond. By late game, we have a ton of slow (Crystal Sceptars and Nunu's abilities), stuns, etc. Teemo is melting them. That game, we had to hold out for late game. But we couldn't as the other team snowballed. On top of this, I was not a strong Amumu. I landed MAYBE 40% of my stuns that mattered, etc.

I'm all for adding champs to the line up. But bottom line, there is no perfect team. There's always a counter. They had way more hit points and did more damage, but, they had no wards. We just kept fighting their fights instead of our own. And watching the replay, we didn't do that bad. We held them to 6 to 4 for a long time. Then Teemo got caught out of position at bottom making it 7 to 4. Then it was a long time again before another kill/death. But at this point, they are ahead in gold by 5k+ and we can't stop them. Every single fight, they burst on top of Teemo and roll us. They were very good at focusing as a team and bursting. Watching with no fog of war, etc, you can see that Teemo could have played much farther back than he was. This would have made it much more difficult for them to jump past us to get to him. Jayce was the 3rd champ. He has ranged attacks as well as jumping attacks. They were very good at penetrating. But the few fights where we were in the right position, etc, we held them back pretty easily. Like I said, there were long stretches of game where there were no deaths. But then we started camping bushes, etc, and that put Teemo way too close to the action. At the time, you don't know you are making the mistakes you are making. But when watching with no fog of war, etc, they become obvious.

Lastly, my build was messed up. Was buying stuff for Warmog's when I found out that Warmog's isn't available on that map. So, I had to buy something else. Force of Nature. So, I had some good solid resist. . . . against an all AD team. I'm a much better Amumu now, which would have impacted that game.




Edited By Cakedaddy on 1354492721
GORDON
Site Admin
Posts: 54396
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 10:43 pm
Location: DTManistan
Contact:

Post by GORDON »

I have played Singed so much "solo top" that my natural instinct is to be aggressive and keep the guys I lane against on their heels... 3 times out of 4. So if I had Teemo pushed too far out from our turret, my bad.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
GORDON
Site Admin
Posts: 54396
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 10:43 pm
Location: DTManistan
Contact:

Post by GORDON »

Doesn't Shen have some sort of "protect your buddy" thing? I bought him the other day with the idea he fits my "tanky" roll.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
User avatar
Cakedaddy
Posts: 8798
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 6:52 pm

Post by Cakedaddy »

It looks like he does, yes.
User avatar
Cakedaddy
Posts: 8798
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 6:52 pm

Post by Cakedaddy »

Shen too. He's got a global shield/teleport/taunt ult. He'd be good for you because he makes a good top champ on SR as well.
Leisher
Site Admin
Posts: 65250
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 9:17 pm
Contact:

Post by Leisher »

I keep saying bruiser/bruiser/damage because that's the current meta in TT.

I think it wouldn't matter if I'm Teemo or Ezreal or Trynd or whomever, a meta team is going to target me first because I'm our damage.

Where I think we have a problem is that nobody else does a bunch of damage. Thus, I get focused, die, and you two are left to fight while doing less damage than the enemy.

Lots of folks have been complaining about how bruisers are ruining the game because they do too much damage for characters that are so tanky. It's why a lot of the true tanks have seen a lot less play lately.

So I think we need to skip true tanks and use bruisers, at least on TT.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
Post Reply