For you Harry Potter fans

As long as we recognize Lucas is washed up and most TV sucks, we'll all get along fine.
GORDON
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Post by GORDON »

Again, the editor didn't write the ending.

But yeah, agree to disagree. The guy who didn't read it has just as valid an opinion as the guy who read it twice.




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Post by TPRJones »

Paul wrote:...disagree that the book should have ended where Kings says it should have ended.

I'm curious: has King indicated outside of the novel itself that this is the case? I mean, how do you know that that wasn't part of the performance art of the piece, much as an actress being raped screaming "No, stop!" doesn't mean to stop the cameras rolling and stop filming, she's playing a role for the movie. How do you know that that piece wasn't King playing a role for the book, instead of really meaning that the reader should stop?

Note that having read this series I know nothing about it and don't have an opinion, or any information outside this thread. I'm just interested in the philosophical basis of this arguement you two are having.




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Post by Paul »

*spoiler alert*














I never said that the editor wrote the ending. The idea that hypothetical question shouldn't be answered because it's only hypothetical is silly.

I simply wanted to know where your definition of the most valid ending was. You know where I stand, valuing the writer's desire over his action. I wanted to know how far your boundaries were.

So I'll pose the question again, but rephrase it. Lets say that the editor added a chapter to the book VII. Now instead of the The Third Policeman'esque (cycle) ending we find that Roland was having a vision in an unknown level of the tower. The quest continues he saves the day, and sees all of his departed loved ones congratulating him and welcoming him just before he dies a satisfying death.

What would your views on that editor-added ending be? I prioritized what I believed to be the writer's opinion, you prioritize his action, I just wanted to know if you prioritized what ends up on paper over what the author wrote.




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Post by Paul »

TPRJones wrote:I'm curious: has King indicated outside of the novel itself that this is the case? I mean, how do you know that that wasn't part of the performance art of the piece, much as an actress being raped screaming "No, stop!" doesn't mean to stop the cameras rolling and stop filming, she's playing a role for the movie. How do you know that that piece wasn't King playing a role for the book, instead of really meaning that the reader should stop?


I don't know. That'd be good to look up. I'd like to hear what the man says outside of the book.

If his "this is where it should end" speech was a part of the performance art of the piece, then it would have a reason for being there. That reason is either literal, or it will have other reason that should be defined later (or earlier) in the book. I believe I already asked Gordon for something specifically relating to it. A quote or two would be nice.

In the series the characters see/read Stephen King's books. They end up visiting him, and eventually save him after he got hit by the car while taking a walk. They have to save him so that he can write the Dark Tower series. Basically King is some sort of conduit that the Tower is using to save itself, thereby saving all of existence.

The author talked about the Stephen King character in the third person. It was always "King did this" or "King said that," and never "I did this" or "I told them that." But in the last chapter, the narrator intrudes into the narrative, specifically addressing the reader, and gives that first person quote about this being the stopping point.

If the narrator is the King character, then that means that he's no longer writing under the Tower's influence and that everything beyond that point is not canon.
If the narrator is a unique character (and has to be), well, that could go either way.
If the narrator is the writer, then the words should be taken at face value.
Literary theorists like Phish will say that there is no author and that the story is all in your head. In that case, you're actually writing your own version of the story as you read and therefore pretty much no rules apply.




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Post by Paul »

The only comment I can find by King on the Dark Tower ending is here.
(Middle of the paragraph 6)
But really, it doesn't talk about a stopping point. It just says that most people didn't like the ending.

But as a bonus, that link might put this topic back on track.




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Post by GORDON »

He wrote it, I read it to the end, and get the end of the story. What else is there to say?

If Tolkein had written Frodo looking at the camera when he and sam were surroudned by lava at Mt. Doom and said, "This is the best ending, people! Go home now!" Would you have left the theatre at the point, or would you have waited to get to the end of the story? Basically, by your actions with the DT books, yes, you would have.

King himself, both in the DT story and without, said time and again that he wasn't making it up, he was channelling the story. So fine, at one point he slips into first person and says, "You should stop here, people, this is the best ending!" But the story still goes on, and he claimed to have no control over it.

SO you quit where the author said, "Beyond here there be dragons," but you never got to the end of the story.
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Post by TheCatt »

Paul wrote:I never said that the editor wrote the ending. The idea that hypothetical question shouldn't be answered because it's only hypothetical is silly.

I simply wanted to know where your definition of the most valid ending was. You know where I stand, valuing the writer's desire over his action. I wanted to know how far your boundaries were.

So I'll pose the question again, but rephrase it. Lets say that the editor added a chapter to the book VII. Now instead of the The Third Policeman'esque (cycle) ending we find that Roland was having a vision in an unknown level of the tower. The quest continues he saves the day, and sees all of his departed loved ones congratulating him and welcoming him just before he dies a satisfying death.

What would your views on that editor-added ending be? I prioritized what I believed to be the writer's opinion, you prioritize his action, I just wanted to know if you prioritized what ends up on paper over what the author wrote.
Uh, spoiler alert?
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Post by GORDON »

TheCatt wrote:
Paul wrote:I never said that the editor wrote the ending. The idea that hypothetical question shouldn't be answered because it's only hypothetical is silly.

I simply wanted to know where your definition of the most valid ending was. You know where I stand, valuing the writer's desire over his action. I wanted to know how far your boundaries were.

So I'll pose the question again, but rephrase it. Lets say that the editor added a chapter to the book VII. Now instead of the The Third Policeman'esque (cycle) ending we find that Roland was having a vision in an unknown level of the tower. The quest continues he saves the day, and sees all of his departed loved ones congratulating him and welcoming him just before he dies a satisfying death.

What would your views on that editor-added ending be? I prioritized what I believed to be the writer's opinion, you prioritize his action, I just wanted to know if you prioritized what ends up on paper over what the author wrote.
Uh, spoiler alert?
*spoiler alert*






That isn't the ending.... is that another spoiler? I guess probably.
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Post by Paul »

GORDON wrote:He wrote it, I read it to the end, and get the end of the story. What else is there to say?

If Tolkein had written Frodo looking at the camera when he and sam were surroudned by lava at Mt. Doom and said, "This is the best ending, people! Go home now!" Would you have left the theatre at the point, or would you have waited to get to the end of the story? Basically, by your actions with the DT books, yes, you would have.

I'll answer your hypothetical question.
Can we just assume it's the Mt. Doom chapter of the book though? A film is something entirely different, as it requires much less investment by the audience and is the creation of many many different contributers.
If Tolkein had any character (including the narrator) address the reader I would go by what I thought the writer's intentions were. If it's a half-hearted "maybe you should turn back before things get scary" I'll conclude that the warning shouldn't be taken at face value. Most warning like that should not. But I think King's speech was genuine, and was meant to be taken at face value.

King himself, both in the DT story and without, said time and again that he wasn't making it up, he was channelling the story. So fine, at one point he slips into first person and says, "You should stop here, people, this is the best ending!" But the story still goes on, and he claimed to have no control over it.


As you said, he had no control while channeling the story. But at that point he was released. "I can stop now, put my pen down, and rest my weary hand..." At that point he's finally released from being the puppet. That's when he says but I know a bunch of you will be pissed off if I stop here so I'll write some more. You've paid your money so I'll make the monkey will dance a little more for you. He's been released from channeling but still writes to satisfy the people who feel they're owed a definitive ending.




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Post by TPRJones »

Yes, but is that how he as a writer really felt? Did he really want it to end there and was forced by the publisher to continue? Or is it a matter of "okay, logically here is where the tower will release the narrator, but I don't want to end the book there because the story is just not done yet ... so I'll have the narrator say some stuff about technically being able to put down the pen but not really being able to because some people will insist it's not done, that way I can finish the story logically and no one will be silly enough to just stop because the narrator says to"?

I honestly don't know. I'm thinking, though, based on this discussion, that maybe I should read this series sometime.
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Post by GORDON »

The fact that throughout every book of the series there are things said that only make sense if the last few pages are taken into consideration.... I'd say those last few pages are crucial to the story as a whole no matter what King says.
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Post by Paul »

TPRJones wrote:Yes, but is that how he as a writer really felt? Did he really want it to end there and was forced by the publisher to continue?
I'm pretty sure that he wasn't forced by the publisher to continue. I think he came to his stopping point just before the "I've told my tale all the way to the end, and am satisfied." line. But I also think he realized that a majority of his readership were going to hate the fact that it ended on a mystery.
He stated his belief that the story should end, gave his reasoning, and (with a sigh) gave the people an ending they could hang their hat on. He made the monkey dance one last time to please the "goal-oriented ones who will not believe that the joy is in the journey rather than the destination," who say they want to know how it all comes out because that's what they paid their money for.

I'd really like to hear Stephen King's opinion on the end of the story. If his speech was meant to be taken literally I was right. But if it was meant to be a character giving unsound advice I was wrong. I just don't see any solid reasoning behind it being the unsound advice.

Even if it released him at that point because his part of the mission was over, why suddenly go into a speech about writing more to please the "unfortunate," "sad," and "cruel" "goal-oriented" readers?

You'd think that there's be a comment about it somewhere on the Internet.

I've told my tale all the way to the end, and am satisfied. It was (I set my watch ant warrant on it) the kind only a good God would save for last, full of monsters and marvels and voyaging here and there. I can stop now, put my pen down, and rest my weary hand (although perhaps not forever; the hand that tells the tales has a mind of its own, and a way of growing restless). I can close my eyes to Mid-World and all that lies beyond Mid-World. Yet some of you who have provided the ears without which no tale can survive a single day are likely not so willing. You are the grim, goal-oriented ones who will not believe that the joy is in the journey rather than the destination no matter how many times it has been proven to you. You are the unfortunate ones who get the lovemaking all confused with the paltry squirt that comes to end the lovemaking (the orgasm is, after all, God's way of telling us we're finished, at least for the time being, and should go to sleep). You are the cruel ones who deny the Grey Havens, where tired characters go to rest. You say you want to know how it all comes out. You say you want to follow Roland into the Tower; you say that is what you paid your money for, the show you came to see.
I hope most of you know better. Want better.
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Post by Paul »

Image

Now maybe her Daddy will love her.




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Post by GORDON »

Jebus.

Yes, that's probably what was missing in her life. Now she can be the pretty princess like how she always wanted.
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Post by TheCatt »

Hmm, that picture is blocked by our firewall.

That I maintain.

I am, apparently, The Man.

Yet, also raging against myself.
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Post by GORDON »

Leisher wounds me deeply when he says he wont watch a Harry Potter marathon with me, so here's me still working on him by posting stuff from people who didn't think they'd like the series until they actually gave it a chance:
I decided it was time to read the Harry Potter series. Last Monday, I sat down with Sorcerer's Stone and tonight I finished Deathly Hollows (I have no life ). What a great story. I only wish the epilogue was longer. I don't get how people say this is a kids tale. I felt it was much more adult than many have claimed.

I guess I fall into that category. I never really had the "Harry Potter is for babies lol" mentality, but I knew they were children's books and that was the main reason I never checked them out when it first started getting attention here in the US. Then one day I ended up watching the first movie with my neices and nephew and enjoyed the story, so I decided to give the books a try. Borrowed the first one from my nephew and when I was finished I went on Amazon and ordered the 1-4 box set because I knew I'd want my own copies. I finished Goblet right around the time Order came out, so I picked that up near release day and by that point I was hooked enough that I bought the last two on release day.

I avoided the books because I felt it was mainstream garbage for the pop culture generation--kids books that adults go "squee!" over just because they're being spoon-fed them. I read a lot of young adult fantasy/fiction, because often it's better than the regular stuff, and I really didn't see how Harry Potter was any different besides the marketing.

Then I visited my family and borrowed my mother's car to do some errands. She had the Philosopher's Stone booktape in the stereo, and given the choice between the crappy small-city radio and the book, I ended up listening to enough of the story to be totally hooked.


I remember hearing all the buzz about the Harry Potter books and thinking they couldn't be that great if so many people loved them. It wasn't until Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone film came out that I wanted to have anything to do with the Harry Potter universe. The only reason I went to see the movie was because I'm a fan of Alan Rickman. I was surprised and impressed that *spoiler deleted* but after seeing #2 in theaters did it hit me that I really wanted to know what happened next. When I bought #3, I remember being so embarrassed that I was buying a Harry Potter book. After I finished it, I was hooked for good and the series quickly turned into one of my all time favorites. When #5 came out, by then I had gotten over my embarrassment and showed up to the midnight selling with the dark mark on my arm.

I was hell bent that I was going to hate Harry Potter until the day I died.

Like a lot of people have stated, my assumption that anything so popular amongst the soccer moms and Hot Topic kids could only be fucking terrible.

It doesn't help that I was working at a Suncoast at the time and I was constantly staring at displays of all sorts of merchandise from the books.

Little stuffed owls, t-shirts, baseball caps, hand bags, lunch boxes, candies figurines, puzzles...all the things you would expect from respectable fiction.

I watched in disgust as lines formed across the parking lot on release day for Goblet of fire.
"What a bunch of fucking losers" I grumbled.


So one day I come in to work just in time to relieve my buddy from the first shift. he was in such a hurry to get the hell out of the store that he had left his copy of Sorcerer's Stone on the counter.
"I'm friends with retards" I thought to myself.

Three hours and no customers later I finally gave in to the boredom, I had read the magazines on our racks a dozen times that week and I had pretty much memorized the selection of movies we had playing...so I grabbed the book and started reading, thinking that "Ah hell it's gotta be better than staring at the ceiling for another 5 hours."

Later that night I was finishing up the last pages of book 1 and having to swallow my pride as I informed my girlfriend that we needed to go to the book store.


Ever since then I have tried to at least sample something before I give it up as a terrible flash in the pan pop culture obsession with no artistic merit.
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Post by TheCatt »

Those are all people talking about the books.

The first 2 movies sucked nuts.
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Post by GORDON »

You shut up.
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Post by Malcolm »

Screw those people. I'm still not reading or watching.
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For you Harry Potter fans

Post by TheCatt »



I never saw/thought this before.
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