GORDON wrote:You make the same logical error that a lot of game designers do, so don't feel bad: Pretty graphics does not equate to a fun game.
Not many folks out there still playing G-Police or Global Domination, even though they're gorgeous games.
One of the tenets of game theory is that you have to play the game within a set of parameters. Staw Wars Galaxies allows you to go anywhere in the landscape... but so what? I lost interest in that game when I realized I was wandering through the wilderness on autopilot, not paying attention to my surroundings, and using my crafting tool to turn lizard skin into tents. I realized I wasn't in any danger. Ever. And even on the off chance something (not someone) killed me, it just means my journey to the city I was heading to would be a lot faster, because I would "clone" there. With no loss of any items.
Zero risk.
Big, big yawn.
The graphics in the Monopoly board game haven't changed significantly in 50 years, yet people still play it a lot. But by your reasoning, it must be a crappy game because Scattegories was invented.
It'd be nice if you actually read my ENTIRE post before replying. I said that the outdated graphics were only PART of the issue. Mostly it's their piss poor POV and lack of innovation when it comes to gameplay. The thing hasn't evolved in years! Like ANY game, there is room for improvement, and MMORPGs make improving easy with patch downloads, ask EQ, they'd patch every month or two. Why can't UO improve their gameplay?
And I'm just saying that they should update the game. It's time for UO2....deal you geezer. :p
Ok, so tell me why the POV is bad, and 1st person is better.
And oh yeah, UO gets patched every few days with tweaks, and every few months with major tweaks. There's a new expansion every 9 months or so. You UO expert, you.
1st person in RPG suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks. 3rd or iso is the ONLY way to play those games. Until they come out with a VR helmet or something that gives you a true perspective of your surroundings. Spinning furiously in FP looking for the rat at your feet is just dumb. Graphics can improve, but the view must not change.
My argument was going to be something like... Quake is played 1st person. Axis and Allies, Risk, Stratego, and chess are played 3rd person. If you want some braindead action, play Quake (or Everquest, AC, or SWG). If you want something deeper, play UO.
I hate first person perspectives in RPGs. Not that good RPGs haven't been made with that POV (Bard's Tale, Wasteland, etc.), but I woud argue that they've actually gotten worse as the worlds have become more interative and the dangers more varied. I believe that of FP shooters too. That perspective is great for viewing beautiful 3D engines, but the problem is that its too limited in its functionality. Cake's right, a VR helmet is the next step to really take FP POV games to where their interactive level matches their graphics level.
3D engines have become a crutch for designers, particularly those working in the MMO genre.
I think the best argument is the fact that the best RPGs being made are still using perspectives other than FP:
Diablo 1 and 2
Dungeon Siege 1 and 2
Divine Divinity and its sequel
Anachronox
SW:KOTOR and its sequel
Fallout and its sequel
the Ultima Series (excect Underworld of course)
the entire Final Fantasy series
the Lunar Series
the Breath of Fire series
everything Zelda related
Skies of Arcadia
etc.
etc.
etc.
I have a whole other argument that I won't start here about why console RPGs are designed better than PC ones, but I will point out that if you read up on new games coming out, the PC previews are always about what new effects there are, while the console reviews talk mostly about gameplay.
Graphics do not make a game, they just make niffy tech demos.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
Wizardry 8 is in an FP perspective. But, the battles are turn based, so the lack of 'surroundings perspective' isn't an issue. You have time to turn around, find the rat, assign people to attack, etc. But real-time rpg requires a birds eye view of the situation.
1st person has problems, but I have always hated most ISO games. For me ISO sucks because you can't see what your charater sees. There's things not but a few "yards" away off the edge of your screen that you should by all right be able to see clearly. Bah.
Roleplaying is more fun when you can see what your character sees.
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
Well, not to go off on a tangent and whatnot, lets just say I disagree. Limiting perspective and field of vision is nice. And personally, I don't consider MMO games to be RPGs really. My favorite RPGs were MUSHes. Completely text based. I'm just saying that if you're going graphical, 1st person is the only way. And almost every decent 1st person based game has an optional 3rd or ISO view.
mbilderback wrote:Well, not to go off on a tangent and whatnot, lets just say I disagree. Limiting perspective and field of vision is nice. And personally, I don't consider MMO games to be RPGs really. My favorite RPGs were MUSHes. Completely text based. I'm just saying that if you're going graphical, 1st person is the only way. And almost every decent 1st person based game has an optional 3rd or ISO view.
As long as you understand that you are wrong, I am ok to "agree to disagree."
There's things not but a few "yards" away off the edge of your screen that you should by all right be able to see clearly. Bah.
Developers use tricks like fog to keep you from seeing what you would in real life. Plus, its easier to make a world more "alive" in a perspective other than FP due to the strains the engine puts on the PC. Again, that goes back to my "current limitations" arguement.
Roleplaying is more fun when you can see what your character sees.
Personally, I enjoy different views depending on the circumstances. On the GBA, a top down view feels old school and its fun, plus that view is necessary for action RPGs like Diablo and Dungeon Siege. Considering most MMORPs are action games...
My favorite perspective though has to be the moving camera "over the shoulder" like in the FF series, Tales of Arcadia, the new Zelda games, etc. You get the "view" of what your character sees, but not in the limiting FP view. Its easy to swing the camera around to see whereever you need to see.
As long as you understand that you are wrong, I am ok to "agree to disagree."
I've got agree with Gordo here because...
I'm just saying that if you're going graphical, 1st person is the only way.
That's our point. FP is great for graphics, but not for gameplay.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
That's our point. FP is great for graphics, but not for gameplay.
That's not what I meant. What I'm saying is that if you're using a graphical interface for a character, it should be first person, IMO. If you two disagree, that's fine, I still think you're wrong. :p Also, I hate games like Diablo. The entire gameplay and interface make me ill.
To me it depends on the game. In Aliens vs Predator, for example, I can't imagine playing tha in anything other than FP. That's part of what makes the game so creepy to play. Max Payne, on the other hand, would have been a complete waste in FP. What's the point of having bullet time if you can't see how it affects your character in his world?
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren
What I'm saying is that if you're using a graphical interface for a character, it should be first person, IMO.
I have no idea what you're trying to say there. Are you saying ALL games should be in FP? All games have characters so...
Besides it being your opinion, which you think is correct despite the massive list of top selling games I've given you, you haven't given us any good reason why RPGs should be in FP. Meanwhile, we're simply saying that FP is great in certain genres, but not in others due to GAMEPLAY aspects.
You do realize gameplay is far more important than how the game looks right? Or are you in marketing?
Out of curiousity, how long have you been playing games? I don't mean board and shizzle, just how long have you been a hard core gamer? (This is just curiousity, not for the debate at hand. I'm curious to see if when you started had an effect on the perspective you prefer.)
In Aliens vs Predator, for example, I can't imagine playing tha in anything other than FP.
In fast paced shooters, there is no better view that FP.
What's the point of having bullet time if you can't see how it affects your character in his world?
Good point Vince. Again, gameplay being the key here.
Another good example was Trespasser. A beautiful game with a great engine and lots of potential. Unfortunately, it was a huge dud because the developers decided the FP view is the one they and gamers wanted. They were wrong. That view made the game and all of its jumping/stacking/etc. puzzles impossible. This isn't my opinion, it was the opinion of the gaming press. Are they all wrong too?
Gameplay means more than graphics.
Which do you want?:
1 - A famous supermodel that's egotistical, doesn't want a family, is spoiled, a bitch, and rarely fucks and when she does she's a selfish dead fish. (graphics)
2 - A girl next door type that loves her family, is warm, sharing, likes to get a little freaky, and accepts you for who you are no matter what. (gameplay)
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
TPRJones wrote:I much perfer my character-driven games (i.e. RPGs) in first person, or at least over-the-shoulder viewpoints.
I feel no need to justify this preference.
I agree entirely with TPR.
And yes, over the shoulder views are important in some games also, Hell I play some games over the shoulder when given either view to choose from. But putting it in reference to character driven games, I think TPR hit the nail on the head. And personally, I feel that over the shoulder views are pretty much FP.
I have no idea what you're trying to say there. Are you saying ALL games should be in FP? All games have characters so...
A. You're wrong, ever played strategy games?
B. I believe that all games that are from a character's perspective should be FP.
You do realize gameplay is far more important than how the game looks right? Or are you in marketing?
Gameplay IS the game. Looks are secondary. But with the power of machines today, you can and do have both. To have one and not the other is setting yourself up for failure.
Out of curiousity, how long have you been playing games? I don't mean board and shizzle, just how long have you been a hard core gamer?
Early '80s. I remember programming games via BASIC into my IBM PC/jr.
Besides it being your opinion, which you think is correct despite the massive list of top selling games I've given you,...
Being a top selling game does not make it good. Everything in my opinion is right for me, agree or disagree to your hearts content. I hate Diablo but many people would disagree with me. So?
I'm very proud of you. Unfortunately, TPR has nothing to be right about.
I don't give a fuck if your preference is to play while naked, hanging upside down from a ceiling fan, wearing mirrored sunglasses with the mirrors on the inside, with your monitor/TV off, while the game is designed from a view that only lets you see your own character and nothing else...that doesn't mean shizzle to me.
None of that is in question. A player's own preferences are his own.
The debate here is that current technology doesn't allow for the true freedom and feel needed by the FP perspective. Life is in FP perspective. When you can move and act in a game like you can in real life, then they'll have gotten there.
And yes, over the shoulder views are important in some games also, Hell I play some games over the shoulder when given either view to choose from.
Here we have an example of someone changing their tune. You went from "FP Rules!" to "other views are good depending on the game". Every single other person, including TPR, except you has stated how gameplay is the critical factor in determining which view is best for a given game. Now all of a sudden you're switching your opinion? A simple, "Oh, I see what you guys are saying. Yeah, sometimes I like a viewpoint other than FP because it makes the game better/easier/more fun to play." would have been good.
[/quote]And personally, I feel that over the shoulder views are pretty much FP
You'd be wrong. FP is First Person = through the eyes of the character. Over the shoulder = Third person. Two different views.
You'd also be contradicting yourself as 3rdP was listed earlier by people debating you and you still stuck with your FP mantra.
A. You're wrong, ever played strategy games?
Nit picking is quite desperate. You typically see this behavior from someone losing a debate...oh wait...
But, I can throw it back at you: ALL things (people, animals, cars, robots, etc.) you control in games are characters. It/They is what represents you. That's a character.
Being a top selling game does not make it good.
Agreed, but a long list of top selling games has to have one or two good gameplay ideas right?
Everything in my opinion is right for me, agree or disagree to your hearts content.
Again, that's not the debate.
FYI: I know you're new at these forums, and I didn't want you to think I'm slamming you in this post. Its a slow day at work, and I'm just bored.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
Leisher wrote:I don't give a fuck if your preference is to play while naked, hanging upside down from a ceiling fan, wearing mirrored sunglasses with the mirrors on the inside, with your monitor/TV off, while the game is designed from a view that only lets you see your own character and nothing else...that doesn't mean shizzle to me.
Have you been stalking me again?
*looks around for hidden cameras*
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
As to the FP versus over-shoulder views, while they are two different views, I also class them together. Both have the perspective of the character as their core, one just also includes blue-elf butt. In most situations, they are essentially the same from a gameplay standpoint.
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
