You, Sir, are No Winston Churchill.

DictionaryDave · Post by **DictionaryDave** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:55 am

A declaration of war is a formal declaration issued by a national government indicating that a state of war exists between that nation, and one or more others.

Kind of hard to declare war with terrorist groups according to that definition.

Post by **GORDON** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:07 am

And he even used the word "occupation." Ugh.

98-1151371563 · Post by **98-1151371563** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:27 pm

So, were there problems with attacks on US troops and local civilians in Japan and Germany in the 50s? Because otherwise I can't really see the comparison. But I don't recall that sort of thing going on there then.

We went there to remove the existing government.

"Mission Accomplished" - (Remember that?)

Now we are in the rebuilding phase. If you still can't see the comparison then I am afraid the problem is on your end, somewhere between the chair and the keyboard.

98-1151371563 · Post by **98-1151371563** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:29 pm

And he even used the word "occupation." Ugh.

Occupation: The Inconvenient Truth About Iraq

It is time to tell an inconvenient truth about Iraq: it is an occupation, not a war. In wars, armies fight to dominate land. The US won the war three years ago when Bush said, “Mission Accomplished”. Then the occupation started, and our troops were not trained or equipped for an occupation under predictably hostile circumstances. Finally getting the courage to tell the truth that the US is an occupying force drastically changes the picture in Iraq. You cannot “win” an occupation. “Cut and run” does not apply to an occupation. Occupiers have to leave; the only question is when and how.

Post by **GORDON** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:31 pm

Never mind that the coalition there at the pleasure of the existing, freely elected Iraqi government. Not quite, but similar to the way you are allowed to post here at my pleasure. And the same way the Iraqi government could ask American troops to leave the country, I could ban you from this forum whenever the mood struck me. See how this works? You don't OCCUPY my forum. You are here at my pleasure. The same way the US isn't occupying Iraq.

Malcolm · Post by **Malcolm** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:00 pm

So, were there problems with attacks on US troops and local civilians in Japan and Germany in the 50s? Because otherwise I can't really see the comparison. But I don't recall that sort of thing going on there then.
We went there to remove the existing government.

"Mission Accomplished" - (Remember that?)

Now we are in the rebuilding phase. If you still can't see the comparison then I am afraid the problem is on your end, somewhere between the chair and the keyboard.

I see few similarities between what happened in Germany & Japan post WWII & what's transpiring in Iraq now.

Post by **TPRJones** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:45 pm

Indeed. If biteme can't see the overwhelming number of differences in those situations, then perhaps he should consider opening a history book sometime.

Post by **GORDON** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:05 pm

Indeed. If biteme can't see the overwhelming number of differences in those situations, then perhaps he should consider opening a history book sometime.

Why think for yourself when Kos's Townhall will feed you your opinions?

98-1151371563 · Post by **98-1151371563** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:24 am

I see few similarities between what happened in Germany & Japan post WWII & what's transpiring in Iraq now.

Your problem, not mine.

98-1151371563 · Post by **98-1151371563** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:25 am

Indeed. If biteme can't see the overwhelming number of differences in those situations, then perhaps he should consider opening a history book sometime.

Never said the situations are exactly the same.

For instance, there were no insurgencies in Germany and Japan.

Malcolm · Post by **Malcolm** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:17 am

I see few similarities between what happened in Germany & Japan post WWII & what's transpiring in Iraq now.
Your problem, not mine.

Enumerate the similarities you see.

98-1151371563 · Post by **98-1151371563** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:16 pm

I see few similarities between what happened in Germany & Japan post WWII & what's transpiring in Iraq now.
Your problem, not mine.
Enumerate the similarities you see.

1. we went in to remove a hostile government.

2. The hostile government was removed.

3. A friendly government was put in place.

4. Our primary focus has shifted to providing security for the new government.

Malcolm · Post by **Malcolm** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:50 pm

Your problem, not mine.
Enumerate the similarities you see.
1. we went in to remove a hostile government.

2. The hostile government was removed.

3. A friendly government was put in place.

4. Our primary focus has shifted to providing security for the new government.

As for (1) :
This is interesting. You're in a bit of a position here. Rebuilding Germany & Japan were massively multi-national efforts. Are you saying that the U.S. has the support of a nontrivial number of other nations in this endeavour?

Now, let's look at a few of the differences I see :

Japan is a geographically isolated region. Germany was surrounded by nations that wanted to kick the living shit out of it for the war the Axis Powers started. Japan & Germany had legitimate industries that could produce finished projects after the war (once all the blasted out factories were dealt w\). Japan certainly didn't live in a sociopolitical region anywhere near as volatile as Iraq. I might hear an argument that Germany did, but I still don't think post-WWII Europe is in the same ballpark as the Middle East of 2006. The economic & international situation is vastly different from the U.S. perspective.

Hell, your four items also refer to the U.S. Civil War & Reconstruction. You wanna call that similar to Iraq?

Post by **TPRJones** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:46 pm

Those four points describe most of the invasionary wars throughout history, don't they? You go in to take over an enemy state, replace it with your own puppet government or regional managers of some sort, then clamp down ont he populace to keep them from taking it back over. That's what invasionary wars are. Of course throughout most of human history this would also include taking members of the loosing population as slaves and probably taking their women as your own in order to breed them out of existance, but the US doesn't do that sort of thing anymore.

So, sure, I'll stipulate that WWII Germany and Japan issues are similar to Iraq issues in the same way that most invasionary wars in history are similar to each other, given your very simplistic view of the situations. I don't see the value in the point, but I'll let you have it for whatever it's worth.

98-1151371563 · Post by **98-1151371563** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:32 am

Hell, your four items also refer to the U.S. Civil War & Reconstruction. You wanna call that similar to Iraq?

I agree somewhat with the comparison to the Reconstruction.

98-1151371563 · Post by **98-1151371563** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:36 am

Obviously Iraq is not exactly the same as any other war before.

Christenson Calls Fourth Iraq Trip The Most Violent Ever

NEW YORK Sig Christenson had not been back to Iraq since 2004. Having taken three trips to the war-torn country during the first 18 months of the U.S. invasion, the San Antonio Express-News scribe and president of Military Reporters and Editors (MRE) had easily seen it all.

But earlier this year, when the idea for a story about a Texas state legislator who is also a Marine reserve colonel in Iraq came up, Christenson found himself heading back to Iraq -- and gladly so. Since arriving in country on Aug. 10, Christenson has embedded with two different units, in Ramadi and at a military hospital in Balad, while also spending a week in Baghdad.

He says the violence is the worst he has ever seen there. "There is fighting everywhere, all over the country," Christenson said late Wednesday during a phone interview from Camp Anaconda, a joint operations base in Balad, some 42 miles north of Baghdad. "The insurgents are using more and more improvised explosive devices. They are getting more and more powerful. It is a real war here."

Malcolm · Post by **Malcolm** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:07 am

Hell, your four items also refer to the U.S. Civil War & Reconstruction. You wanna call that similar to Iraq?
I agree somewhat with the comparison to the Reconstruction.

This ain't like the Reconstruction. Troops were sent to the South to enforce laws humiliating to that particular region. It was a vicious payback of an occupation.

We're in Iraq to try to bring some stability to one of the most fucking nitroglycerine-like areas in the world. Even relatively simple shit like this is extraordinarily difficult. We're doing it in Iraq. It's difficult as trying to throw one hundred bullseyes in a row over our shoulder while drunk using our off hand w\ our eyes closed. That could take a long-ass time. But we sure as fuck can't pull out now. The entire country would get dragged down in anarchy. If you think shit is bad over there now, picture what shit would go down if our troops weren't there maintaining at least some semblance of order. The various ethnic & religious groups in that country behave like twelve year olds. They ain't gonna miraculously get along if we leave.

DoctorChaos · Post by **DoctorChaos** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:21 am

Obviously Iraq is not exactly the same as any other war before.

So on the word of one man with a weak stomach, we can now declare Iraq different from every other war/occupation in history?

The only difference here is the cowardice and availability of weapons to the few disgruntled extremist. I say cowardice because only cowards would resort to killing indiscriminately and hide behind innocent people (see Vietnam). And the availabilty of weapons and funding from our 'friends' in Syria, Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia. I'm sure there are some sympathizers in Kazistan and certainly some in our press. Of course funding and weapons were available to Vietnam and Korea during their occupation. So maybe there isn't a difference after all.

98-1151371563 · Post by **98-1151371563** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:05 am

"Weak Stomach" my ass.

That guy has been to Iraq four times?

How many times have you been there?

Pretty easy to play armchair general parked in front of Faux News, isn't it?

Malcolm · Post by **Malcolm** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:01 pm

"Weak Stomach" my ass.

That guy has been to Iraq four times?

How many times have you been there?

Pretty easy to play armchair general parked in front of Faux News, isn't it?

Goddamnit, I might not be there, but I think I've got a decent enough grasp of world history, geography, & logic to get a real good idea what it's like.

Just cos one dude starts talking like its the Apocalypse over there ain't sufficient reason to believe that all of our efforts are utterly worthless. I ain't been to Cannae, either, but I've got a good idea what the battle there was like.