Climate Change (fka man-made global warming)

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Leisher
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Post by Leisher »

TheCatt wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 3:49 pm You have to compare last mile on both. I still say no, shipping wins. Also a major win for traffic.
I still say yes. However, we'd need a really, crazy in depth study done to really analyze all this and I'm neither doing it nor funding it. Thus, I'll say that it was only one of his points on why malls need to be strong again.
TheCatt wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 3:49 pm I dont want to live in your world.
I don't want to live there either!

Once we have replicators from Star Trek/Orville all of this will be moot anyway.
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Leisher wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 3:52 pm Once we have replicators from Star Trek/Orville all of this will be moot anyway.
In a word of replicators, what's still scarce? Land?
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TheCatt wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 4:27 pm
Leisher wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 3:52 pm Once we have replicators from Star Trek/Orville all of this will be moot anyway.
In a word of replicators, what's still scarce? Land?
I assume you meant "world".

Land. Privacy. Motivation to work.

Replicators should be their own thread. They would solve a lot of problems, but create a slew of all new ones.

One of the Orville S3 episodes goes in depth about this very topic. It has some very optimistic views on human nature.
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Cakedaddy
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Post by Cakedaddy »

TheCatt wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 3:49 pm You have to compare last mile on both.
This.

Truck full of goods goes to the store for 30 individuals to all drive to the mall to get.
Truck full of goods goes to the warehouse where one vehicle drives to 30 houses using an optimized travel route that is far less than 30 individual round trips.
Then up to 30 round trips to return stuff or once vehicle visiting 30 residences using an optimized travel route. (if you want to factor in returns)

I feel like maybe at the beginning when everything wasn't mail order and trucks were driving long distances between stops you might have an argument. But now the volume of mail order deliveries to areas so condensed, I have to think shipping is more efficient.

Plus, a big warehouse full of goods is WAY cheaper and environmentally friendly than a mall because they have no luxury amenities (fountains, etc). Hell, they don't even have air conditioning. WAY cheaper to run and maintain from carbon perspective.

We don't need an in depth expensive investigation. It's pretty obvious!
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Cakedaddy wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 5:39 pm It's pretty obvious!
But it's really not.

Retail:
Batch of X leaves foreign country via freighter for U.S.
Once in U.S. it boards a truck or train then truck.
Truck gets offloaded at store.
Customers come to store, try stuff on, then purchase an item or don't. Maybe they take it home and return it later.
If there are returns the store needs to process, they ship a bunch of stuff back to the manufacturer at one time.

Online:
Lots more purchases being made that otherwise wouldn't get made because people now have a mall in their face 24/7. So more products are needed, which means more plants running longer hours and more materials being used. Additionally, new products are constantly in demand and being made to "keep up with the Joneses".
One X leaves foreign country via freighter once it's ordered. Instead of leaving as part of a large batch, it's just being shipped one at a time using far more packaging materials.
Once in U.S. it boards a truck that takes it to a distribution hub.
There it either gets on another truck to be taken across the U.S. or a plane depending on terms of shipping.
The plane arrives at an airport where another truck is waiting for it to take it to another distribution hub. Or the truck delivers it there if no plane was needed.
Then a delivery truck will take it to a house, but won't put it aside to be delivered with other items ordered by that same house. Nope they'll just bring it whenever. Multiple trucks are going through there all day and it'll be on one of them.
Person gets the item ripping apart the box, but they hate it. Now they need to order a new box to ship it back (start over at step one) or drive to post office or carrier office to ship it back. So reverse this whole process and do it again for each individual item they order and return.

And again, a replicator makes this all moot. Also again, this was just one point in the whole "Let's make malls great again" argument. The social aspect is indisputable.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
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Post by TheCatt »

I think Cake already won this argument. Also, remember the efficiency of like 25 warehouses versus 10,000 retail stores.
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You think that because he's on your side. You'd make a good reporter in 2022 America. :D

Like I said, more studies need to be done.
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Post by TheCatt »

Leisher wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:39 pm You think that because he's on your side. You'd make a good reporter in 2022 America. :D

Like I said, more studies need to be done.
So literally the only study on the subject that was cited agrees with cake and me got it. :D
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Do I need to do the "reading comprehension" thing to you? They, literally, discuss both studies and one went one way while the other went the other.

Damn reporters...
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Post by TheCatt »

Leisher wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:49 pm Do I need to do the "reading comprehension" thing to you? They, literally, discuss both studies and one went one way while the other went the other.

Damn reporters...
The second study sounds very hypothetical, and not grounded in data :)
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Whatever fits your argument, huh?

When I googled that I was reading that only 6 studies have ever been done on the subject and overall have been mostly inconclusive. Apparently, the online side has so many variables that it's extremely difficult to hammer down real numbers. However, as the study with the questions makes clear, the thinking is that with all the variables online shopping will be more damaging.

Personally, I've long advocated for the return of malls. I think towns should have mega malls run and policed by the city/county. However, unlike current malls they should be hubs for entertainment. Theaters, esports arenas, old school arcades, restaurants and bars with live shows, theaters for musicals and whatnot, etc. And here's a thought: Traditional anchor stores, but get the real big boys Walmart, Meijer, Costco, Sam's Club, Target, and Amazon.

Yes Amazon. What if they had an anchor store where you could pick up orders, try things on, shop online, etc.? Fuck you porch pirates! Returns are more efficiently returned. Still the social factor. Online retailers like Shein could set up kiosks there and actually provide real customer service. Etc. It'd be like a mall within a mall.

Meanwhile, we can start tearing out old brick and mortars and letting them go back to nature. Encourage older businesses to move to more heavily trafficked areas due to the changing landscape by having the city buy properties and pay for the cost of moving.

In our new less social world, we need to encourage more centralization of public activities. Seems like it would be win-win across the board. Policing, environment, citizens, etc.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
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Post by TheCatt »

Leisher wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:41 am I think towns should have mega malls run and policed by the city/county
You've never lived anywhere that has state run ABC stores, have you?
Leisher wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:41 am However, unlike current malls they should be hubs for entertainment. Theaters, esports arenas, old school arcades, restaurants and bars with live shows, theaters for musicals and whatnot, etc.
American Dream mall is trying that, and missed debt payments already.
Leisher wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:41 am Yes Amazon. What if they had an anchor store where you could pick up orders, try things on, shop online, etc.? Fuck you porch pirates! Returns are more efficiently returned. Still the social factor. Online retailers like Shein could set up kiosks there and actually provide real customer service. Etc. It'd be like a mall within a mall.
Amazon had stores, and closed them
Leisher wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:41 am we can start tearing out old brick and mortars and letting them go back to nature.
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I don't even need to look at your links (I will after writing this first part) to stipulate that you can't be corrupt, incompetent, or stupid and make these things work.

Ok, looked at links. The mall one has too many variables and isn't really what I'm picturing. (If we want to get into details, we should move that idea to a different thread.) Malls will return and already are...

The Amazon one doesn't apply at all. None of it fits what I was envisioning.
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Leisher wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 11:06 am to stipulate that you can't be corrupt, incompetent, or stupid and make these things work.
I mean, you brought up government, not me!
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Fair point!
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Post by Cakedaddy »

Leisher wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:25 pm Batch of X leaves foreign country via freighter for U.S.
Once in U.S. it boards a truck or train then truck.
Truck gets offloaded at store.
This is incorrect. From the boat, it goes to a distribution hub where the containers are broken down because no store needs an entire container of toasters. They need 15 of them. From the distribution hub, trucks are loaded up with the individual items each store needs. So, 40 trucks deliver goods to 40 stores. And that's just ONE store. Macy's distribution center doesn't deliver stuff to Best Buy at the same mall, or Forever 21, or Journey, or Pac Sun, or etc. Every store there is getting a truck delivery from a distribution center somewhere. They don't get deliveries from the dock in California. Also, Macy's just spent the last two years (and continuing) overhauling their distribution centers to support same/next day deliveries. This would eliminate the cost (dollars/resources) of having stores eventually. I see brick and mortar being less and less needed. I don't know if this is considered "economy of scale" but when EVERYONE is doing it, things can get much more efficient. Can't tell you how many times a UPS truck stops on our street and leaves stuff at 4 houses on my street alone.

Leisher wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:25 pm Lots more purchases being made that otherwise wouldn't get made because people now have a mall in their face 24/7. So more products are needed, which means more plants running longer hours and more materials being used. Additionally, new products are constantly in demand and being made to "keep up with the Joneses".
This seems like a good thing. Isn't this a growing economy?
Leisher wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:25 pm One X leaves foreign country via freighter once it's ordered. Instead of leaving as part of a large batch, it's just being shipped one at a time using far more packaging materials.
I was not under the impression that when I buy a cellphone case that a guy in China is putting one on a freighter and sending it over. I was under the impression that a distributor over here bought a container full at a discount and is marking them up and selling them here from a distribution hub.
Leisher wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:25 pm Person gets the item ripping apart the box
Who the hell still does this? Everyone knows you save the box and materials to be able to ship it back. It's a pain in the ass to start from scratch when you want to send something back. No one buys shipping materials to send something back. You wait until the next thing arrives and use that box. When was the last time you went to staples or the UPS store and bought boxes and bubble wrap to ship something?



Then there's the holidays. In the old days, you went to the store, bought it, stopped to get shipping materials, brought it home to wrap it, box it up, take it to UPS to ship it to family. Now you have the stuff shipped directly to them, already wrapped in some cases. That's pure efficiency right there!

I would argue that shipping materials are the most reused waste on the planet.
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Post by Leisher »

As proven above and before your post, all that opinion doesn't equal fact. Wait for the studies.
Cakedaddy wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:53 pm I would argue that shipping materials are the most reused waste on the planet.
I would argue it's urine and feces.
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Post by Leisher »

In actual environment news, Pakistan being underwater is the latest "Global Warming is going to kill us all" flag.

First of all, I wish harm on no innocent people, but fuck the Pakistani government. Those assholes harbor terrorists and are very anti-U.S. and anti-freedom.

Secondly, saw a post yesterday somewhere on Reddit that pointed out how many of the predictions for our climate's future by "the sky is falling" folks have not only not come true, but the opposite has happened. A response said the person that posted it was just cherry picking data (ocean ice doing well, polar bears thriving, coral reef growth way beyond expectations, etc.), but isn't that exactly what these types of stories are doing?

How many environmental disasters aren't actually because of climate change, but because of piss poor planning by engineers and our elected officials? For example: Katrina wasn't devastating because of global warming, but rather because people chose to live in a bowl surrounded by poorly maintained dams in a hurricane zone.

We need to do our part to not pollute the Earth and to clean shit like the huge plastic patch in the ocean, but how much of this is just convenient excuses?
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Post by TheCatt »

Leisher wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 1:57 pm coral reef growth way beyond expectations
Last I saw coral reef growth was beyond expectations of "dying out," not winning.
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TheCatt wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 2:08 pm
Leisher wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 1:57 pm coral reef growth way beyond expectations
Last I saw coral reef growth was beyond expectations of "dying out," not winning.
Probably depending on the reef.

I know the giant one in Cuba remains completely unaffected thanks to the Castros. (Honestly, the best thing they ever did.)

Great Barrier Reef has record growth.

I know other ones in the Pacific have gone mostly untouched as well, including a massive one that was just discovered within the last two years. Meanwhile, coral in highly trafficked places are still shrinking.
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