Phones in School

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Leisher
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Phones in School

Post by Leisher »

I heard today that Iraq shut down their entire country's internet for a brief period. Why? To block students from cheating on tests using their cell phones. (Yes, this happened.)

It got me to thinking about our "rights" vs "the common good", blah blah blah.

If we make it legal to prevent someone from driving until they're 16, serving their country until they're 18, drinking until they're 21, smoking until they're 18, and screwing until they're 15-17 (or whatever your state decides), then wouldn't it seem fair to follow that logic in enforcing something to prevent phones in schools?

All of those laws I cited are about "protecting" someone and others from dangerous actions until a person is deemed old enough to make an informed decision, right?

We can also throw in other laws that are about personal protection, the protection of others, and "the common good" since they affect insurance, traffic, etc. like helmet laws, seat belt laws, drinking and driving, texting and driving, etc.

So taking all that into consideration, and going strictly by that logic, wouldn't it make sense to create laws banning the use of cell phones in classrooms?

Before anyone says it, yes I get freedom actually meaning having the right to fuck your life up and I agree. I'm not really advocating anything here, just discussing something that I find interesting. (Although, I don't know that I'm against the idea either.)

But wouldn't it make sense to prevent kids not paying attention, disrupting others, and more easily cheating by removing cell phones from classrooms?

And to counter parents who claim they pay for the phone and it's a vital source of communication with their kid, yada, yada, yada. I'm simply saying the phones must stay in lockers. They can take them to school. They can use them between classes, during lunch, and even during study hall, but if they enter a classroom where a teacher is going to actively teach, they must leave them in their locker.

If second hand smoke means someone can't smoke in a public place (and in many cases nowhere on the property), then using that logic, doesn't the distraction phones cause "harming" other students and their ability to learn?

For the public good argument, doesn't it make sense to "protect" our kids from becoming mindless morons whose only link to intelligence is what they can google because instead of learning in school they were playing flappy bird or on instagram? (Same as protecting them from smoking, drinking, sex, etc.) Aren't they too young to make the decision to ruin their future by ignoring their education? I mean, isn't that why education is mandatory by law?

Would a law like this apply only to one's pre-school through high school education or do you try to apply it to college as well?

Again, I'm not advocating for this idea or against the other laws. I'm just thinking about this out loud to you all.
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Re: Phones in School

Post by TPRJones »

So taking all that into consideration, and going strictly by that logic, wouldn't it make sense to create laws banning the use of cell phones in classrooms?
No. Not "because freedom", but because cell phones aren't phones anymore. They're powerful mobile computer devices. They are a tool that are going to become increasingly leveraged in the educational process over the next 20 years as we transition from an educational system designed to produce factory workers to an educational system designed to produce entrepreneurial contractors. Having to also fight later on to remove any laws in the way of that progress would only slow things down.

The problems you outline are not inherent in the tool. They are part of the general failure of the educational system to engage. That is what needs to be fixed, and not by removing hand-held computers from schools.
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Re: Phones in School

Post by TheCatt »

I would argue we don't need laws for it. Minors don't have full rights, and parents have that authority, which I do not want ceded to the government. That's my decision.
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Leisher
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Re: Phones in School

Post by Leisher »

TPRJones wrote:
So taking all that into consideration, and going strictly by that logic, wouldn't it make sense to create laws banning the use of cell phones in classrooms?
No. Not "because freedom", but because cell phones aren't phones anymore. They're powerful mobile computer devices. They are a tool that are going to become increasingly leveraged in the educational process over the next 20 years as we transition from an educational system designed to produce factory workers to an educational system designed to produce entrepreneurial contractors. Having to also fight later on to remove any laws in the way of that progress would only slow things down.

The problems you outline are not inherent in the tool. They are part of the general failure of the educational system to engage. That is what needs to be fixed, and not by removing hand-held computers from schools.
This is an excellent counterpoint.

My question then lies in what needs to be done to correct the issue, and would "banning" cell phones within class room on test days, be a good stop gap until the system is changed?
parents have that authority, which I do not want ceded to the government.
The problem I have with that is parents will err on the side of safety for their kids. That means communication/tracking device on their person at all times. Although, I also don't think the government needs to raise my kids. Thus, I thought a nice compromise would be phones with the kids, but keep them in lockers not classrooms.
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Re: Phones in School

Post by Malcolm »

would "banning" cell phones within class room on test days, be a good stop gap until the system is changed?
No.
The problem I have with that is parents will err on the side of safety for their kids. That means communication/tracking device on their person at all times.
Then your problem is with those parents giving their kids toys they aren't prepared for. I'm not punishing the handful of students that may be responsible enough because most of them are being douchebags. If I'm at teacher, I sure as hell don't want to add "digital device babysitter/nazi" to my list of "shit I do but don't get paid enough for."
I thought a nice compromise
"Compromise." Isn't that just a bullshit word invented to sell the idea that a patchwork idea where everyone's pissed off equally is somehow better than a connected, coherent plan that at least one side likes?
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Re: Phones in School

Post by GORDON »

I don't have a problem with phones as long as

1 - Kids aren't playing with them when they should be doing something else.

B - They are information devices and can be used to cheat on tests.

That is a kid-by-kid issue, and yeah, a lot of kids make poor choices... that's why we have a system that younger people learn from older people. I don't believe in the usefulness of blanket punishments. I always tell my kid that they are a sign the people in charge aren't good at their jobs.
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Leisher
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Re: Phones in School

Post by Leisher »

No.
Very constructive. Thank you.
When your problem is with those parents giving their kids toys they aren't prepared for.
This happens. A lot. However, as stated, they're safety devices too. You can try to debate that, but you'll be wrong every time. Every. Time. I mean, imagine if you could keep track of a bottle of scotch at all times? You could warn it about dangers or go to a website and see where it is if it's missing. That's how parents feel about their kids.
"Compromise." Isn't that just a bullshit word invented to sell the idea that a patchwork idea where everyone's pissed off equally is somehow better than a connected, coherent plan that at least one side likes?
This is both incredibly stupid and correct.

Pretending that compromise is a bad thing is dangerous thinking. It implies you believe you're always right no matter the issue. Welcome to the forum Mr. Clooney.

While it can be true that one side's POV and solution might be correct some of the time, that's never true the majority of the time. Go look at the transgender thread and the news items related to it. One side wants them banned from opposite sex restrooms period. The other wants to force everyone to accept the change and if someone else feels violated or vulnerable, tough shit and if it allows easier access for rapists or perverts, well, tough shit again. Compromises have been suggested here that "should" make both sides feel empowered, but I guess they're bad?

So if Trump makes it into office and starts building a wall, and ignoring Congress, and naming himself emperor, you'll hate him, but respect his plan that he's forcing on everyone else?
I'm not punishing the handful of students that may be responsible enough because most of them are being douchebags.
That is a kid-by-kid issue, and yeah, a lot of kids make poor choices... that's why we have a system that younger people learn from older people.
But surely you realize you're punishing those "good kids" by allowing the bad ones to disrupt class and/or cheat to throw off scores and remove opportunities? When that kid has a better life than your kid, call me and tell me how that worked out. Oh, I'm full of shit and the world doesn't work that way? Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are your nominees for president. Tell me how the cream always rises to the top. :D

Ok, I had a little fun there, but realistically can someone give me a reason phones CURRENTLY need to be in classrooms? Not what they can do, but what they do right now. I'll wait...

No? Nobody?

My kid has a chromebook assigned by the school and it's opened my eyes to how shitty our education system has become. Teachers don't lecture anymore. All the lectures are on education websites that the kids are told to go to during class and get taught. Maybe that doesn't happen every day, but my wife has been in the school 65% of the school days this year and she has the same complaint, so not good.

In a perfect world, phones would be used in the classroom the right way. Teachers would still teach and wouldn't lean on computers to do their job (although that might be mandated by the state, who knows?). Plans would be in place to use technology to improve the classroom, but they're not there currently. Right now it's all a dog and pony show. Maybe that'll change when high school comes around, but I want to deal with realities not "how things should be".

I don't see how dealing in ideals makes us any different from the hippies who preach about Utopian bullshit where money is nothing and nobody has guns and there's no crime.

So my current stance would be that phones shouldn't be in the classroom. Put plans in place to get them there, but until then, no.

Now excuse me, I have to go laugh my ass off thinking about Malcolm as a teacher.
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Re: Phones in School

Post by TheCatt »

My kid has a chromebook assigned by the school and it's opened my eyes to how shitty our education system has become. Teachers don't lecture anymore. All the lectures are on education websites that the kids are told to go to during class and get taught. Maybe that doesn't happen every day, but my wife has been in the school 65% of the school days this year and she has the same complaint, so not good.
My understanding is that this approach is to allow children to a) develop better at their own speed, and b) provide time for the teacher to do group or 1-on-1 review with individual students who need the time. It's called "turning the classroom upside down," I've been waiting for it to get more mainstream, and would have loved it as a kid. I was so damned bored in school. I think it's the future of education. Particularly since those lectures are no longer dependent on the variable quality of the teachers, and can be standardized and leveraged across the entire country.
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Re: Phones in School

Post by Alhazad »

Leisher wrote:So my current stance would be that phones shouldn't be in the classroom. Put plans in place to get them there, but until then, no.
I have the same ideological objection as TPR. By making it easier on teachers now, you further prop up a status quo that has to fall for progress to be made. Status quo already has enough support. I'd rather immediately shift focus to teaching the kids how to use them the way that they're going to need to do in the job market -- that is to say, checking Google and Stack Exchange for answers. Better growing pains now than a workforce without workskills.
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TPRJones
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Re: Phones in School

Post by TPRJones »

Ok, I had a little fun there, but realistically can someone give me a reason phones CURRENTLY need to be in classrooms? Not what they can do, but what they do right now.
* Depending on the school in question, there may be a heavy online component to courses via an LMS like https://blackboard.com/, and cellphones can be used in class to access that portion of the course content.

* Even if you don't have an LMS, you can still put your quizzes or exams online on various free sites (like http://corp.castlelearning.com/) or aps (like http://exitticket.org/) that will let you grade the results simply and digitally instead of laboriously on paper like it's still the last century.

* Some teachers (mostly at university level, but some also at high school level) actively use https://www.polleverywhere.com/ in their classrooms as a feedback tool for better engagement. Sell also https://www.edmodo.com/ and http://monstermedia.net/social-media-displays/.

* Students doing groupwork are encouraged to use https://www.google.com/docs/about/ or https://evernote.com/?var=2 to allow for better coordination in project files then just emailing them around the group. One instructor I know of encourages the students to all take notes during the lecture together in a single online document that they all have access to for later study.

* When you need to show your students video content and you don't have a classroom with a video projector or access to some sort of TV cart, find ti online or post it to https://www.youtube.com/ and have them all watch it on their phones together.

* And of course there's games as teaching tools. Teaching collaboration skills using https://minecraft.net/en/ is just the tip of the iceberg. Developers are working on massive suites of tools to help teachers come up with engaging gaming-based instruction on sites like https://getkahoot.com/.

Bottom line is computers are potentially very useful in education, and some teachers are already using them extensively in class. And a cellphone is a computer. It should be up to every teacher how cellphones are or are not allowed to be used in their classrooms. A global ban on cell phones would be just as bad as a global ban on teachers telling students they can't use cellphones in class. Every classroom is different.
Last edited by TPRJones on Tue May 24, 2016 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Phones in School

Post by TPRJones »

TheCatt wrote:
My kid has a chromebook assigned by the school and it's opened my eyes to how shitty our education system has become. Teachers don't lecture anymore. All the lectures are on education websites that the kids are told to go to during class and get taught. Maybe that doesn't happen every day, but my wife has been in the school 65% of the school days this year and she has the same complaint, so not good.
My understanding is that this approach is to allow children to a) develop better at their own speed, and b) provide time for the teacher to do group or 1-on-1 review with individual students who need the time. It's called "turning the classroom upside down," I've been waiting for it to get more mainstream, and would have loved it as a kid. I was so damned bored in school. I think it's the future of education. Particularly since those lectures are no longer dependent on the variable quality of the teachers, and can be standardized and leveraged across the entire country.
So far it's much more prevalent at the university level. But it makes a huge amount of sense. Do the lecture once and put it on video. Have the students watch that video as their "homework" and then have them do the homework part in class. The reason this is so powerful is that it's during the application of the learning that the most questions arise, not during the lecture that is relatively unchanging from one class to another. Why have the students to the hard part where they have the most questions and need the most help away from the teacher? Flipping it around means teachers don't have to keep repeating the same lecture over and over and over for their careers, instead they can get one good one in the can and then they can work with the students in the classroom making sure that learning actually sticks.

Our developmental math classes have been doing a huge test run of this teaching methodology and the results so far have been great. Pass rates in those classes have more than tripled so far.
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Re: Phones in School

Post by GORDON »

On this subject, what's that website where the guy uses youtube to teach kids how to do different kinds of math and equations? I remember Bill Gates praised that guy's method, once. My kid is always asking me how to do different weird math things and usually it is while we are driving and I can't stop and splain.
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Re: Phones in School

Post by TheCatt »

Khan academy
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Re: Phones in School

Post by Malcolm »

I mean, imagine if you could keep track of a bottle of scotch at all times?
Why the fuck is it out of my sight in the first place? But moving on...
Pretending that compromise is a bad thing is dangerous thinking. It implies you believe you're always right no matter the issue.
Those two things are entirely disconnected. Compromise IS a dangerous thing. How the fuck can any sane person expect that cherry-picking a tiny bit from each of several competing concepts in EXACTLY the right balance magically works? That's like a blind guy mixing together a few jigaw puzzles and hoping he puts the pieces together so that something awesome comes out the other end of the process.

That line of thinking does not insinuate that I'm right all the time. It suggests that some things can't or shouldn't be mixed. It suggests I'd rather go full bore with a clear, dedicated plan than trying to cover everything at once.
But surely you realize you're punishing those "good kids" by allowing the bad ones to disrupt class and/or cheat to throw off scores and remove opportunities?
Schools should already have rules on the books to discipline asshole students. "Using your phone like a dick" falls into that category. Phones are out on a desk, silent mode. No rings, no vibrate unless it's for educational purposes. If they decide to surf pr0n or text their friends during that time, deal with them as you catch them.
My kid has a chromebook assigned by the school and it's opened my eyes to how shitty our education system has become. Teachers don't lecture anymore. All the lectures are on education websites that the kids are told to go to during class and get taught. Maybe that doesn't happen every day, but my wife has been in the school 65% of the school days this year and she has the same complaint, so not good.
A decade ago, I ran into an old high school teacher. Old-skool dude. Lectured to us with chalk and '70s slideshow projectors. I used my freshman history notes to ace first year western civ in uni. All his students had laptops now and he remarked, "I don't know. We keep giving them smarter tools and they keep getting stupider." Idiots throughout existence have misused opportunities. This is no different. It's just an expensive waste.

The overreliance on tech is something you'll need to take up with those moronic educators that use it like a crutch. Maybe your school shouldn't hire them. Banning tech has always seemed stupid to me. Most things are invented so a machine can do work I'd otherwise have to do. What can a phone do? It can check out wikipedia so I can check if my textbook is full of shit. I can do it in class and call out the prof. It's got voice lookup capability that my generation thought of as exclusive to Inspector Gadget's niece's portable computer. You can administer shitty quizzes through a website instead of wasting time running off copies, grading them, and handing them back.
Now excuse me, I have to go laugh my ass off thinking about Malcolm as a teacher.
Bah. I've seen the classroom from goddamned near every angle possible.

- From high school until grad school, I tutored at least dozens of people individually
- Uni made me the only undergrad TA for a grad-level comp sci course in department history
- I've lectured to triple digits at a time on several occasions, and hundreds of times overall to an audience
- I've held hundreds of discussions, study sessions, or review sessions with students ... some of those were groups of past students from other courses seeking my clarification on something from their present class, i.e. they came looking for me instead of the real prof
- When I did teach, I designed the material for over a dozen courses myself
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Re: Phones in School

Post by GORDON »

Malcolm wrote: The overreliance on tech is something you'll need to take up with those moronic educators that use it like a crutch. Maybe your school shouldn't hire them. Banning tech has always seemed stupid to me.
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Re: Phones in School

Post by Malcolm »

Back in my day, I had to learn cursive before they'd let me near a typing class. Does that still make sense? When I was in high school, those TI-83 graphing calculators were used for approximately 1% graphing and 99% playing shitty text games. Should they have taken them away?

In your analogy, there's a new shoe style in town. It's not going away and it's only going to get bigger and more integrated with every generation. It's also not as simple as going from baby shoes to cleats. This is like buying one shoe that transforms into a zillion other shoes and can do your taxes. The cat's out of the genie in the bottle's bag.
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Re: Phones in School

Post by GORDON »

Why teach them to crawl when you can just teach them to run?
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Re: Phones in School

Post by Troy »

TheCatt wrote:Khan academy
Most recenetly, Khan gave me a quick 30m refresher on finding the "Log base x" of things. Cool and good website.
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Re: Phones in School

Post by TheCatt »

Troy wrote:
TheCatt wrote:Khan academy
Most recenetly, Khan gave me a quick 30m refresher on finding the "Log base x" of things. Cool and good website.
Logs are just fancy division.

Division is just fancy subtraction.
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Re: Phones in School

Post by Malcolm »

Logarithms? Shit, I went to the grave of the dude who invented them.
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