Google/Alphabet

GORDON
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Post by GORDON »

I'd really like to see fortnite lean in to it and just publicly declare, "Yeah, ok, fuck apple. If you want to be a gamer, get on a real platform."
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Post by Leisher »

TheCatt wrote:
Leisher wrote:
TheCatt wrote:
Yes, Google allows other stores/etc. Apple is a bullshit monopolist.
So without the Apple store someone would never be able to play Fortnite?
1.1Bn Apple devices would be locked out, yes.
You are forgetting all of the Apple devices that can run Windows on a separate partition.

And the answer is no. If people don't like it, they can go buy a PC, console, or Droid. Nobody is forced into owning an Apple product.
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Post by TheCatt »

Leisher wrote: You are forgetting all of the Apple devices that can run Windows on a separate partition.
I've never seen this option on an iPhone or an iPad.
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Post by Leisher »

There are emulation apps. There are apps like LogMeIn that allow you to control a computer from your iPad or iPhone. (Not being snarky, you can absolutely control a PC from an iPhone.)

And if you don't like those methods, go buy a new device!

Owning an Apple product is not a right.

So we're clear, you are on the side of Epic. Their argument is that they should be able to sell their game on the Apple store and not pay the 30% Apple charges. They also think they should be able to get their game onto Apple devices through methods not in the store so they can circumvent Apple's right to a profit.

Meanwhile, Epic's deal with indy developers is that if they want to be on the EGS, then their game cannot be available anywhere else...

Fuck Epic.
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Post by TheCatt »

Leisher wrote: So we're clear, you are on the side of Epic. Their argument is that they should be able to sell their game on the Apple store and not pay the 30% Apple charges. They also think they should be able to get their game onto Apple devices through methods not in the store so they can circumvent Apple's right to a profit.
Apple has no right to a profit.

I'm not sure exactly where I stand. I believe that Apple is being unreasonable and monopolistic. Where the line gets drawn, I'm not sure. But I 0% believe that they need a 30% cut of all transactions on their platform.
Leisher wrote: Meanwhile, Epic's deal with indy developers is that if they want to be on the EGS, then their game cannot be available anywhere else...
I do not believe this is true. Epic allows anyone to publish, with a 12.5% take, iirc. But, if you want the guaranteed upfront payment, you have to sign an exclusivity agreement.
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Post by Leisher »

TheCatt wrote:Apple has no right to a profit.
Granted, no company has a "right" to make a profit, but when the company creates, manufactures, and markets their own devices and creates and manages the software for it, it's their house. They get to decide what works with it and what doesn't. They also get to charge an entry fee.

Nightclubs charge entry fees. They also dictate what products are sold and what music is played. A beer manufacturer doesn't just get to barge into the club and demand their product be sold. They also can't stand outside and sell it.
TheCatt wrote: I believe that Apple is being unreasonable and monopolistic.
I think Epic is being disingenuous and trying to out weasel companies to position themselves so they can turn around and do the same shit.
TheCatt wrote: But I 0% believe that they need a 30% cut of all transactions on their platform.
Agreed, but 30% is the industry standard. Why are they not allowed to charge it? Google will now be doing the same, are they being unreasonable and monopolistic? You think Epic won't charge that if they are successful in pushing everyone else out of the market?

Remember, the only reason Epic is charging less is because they are trying to steal the market from everyone else. They're bribing people with Fortnite money and their Unreal engine gives them the ability to charge less. Epic charges developers using that Unreal engine if they publish elsewhere, so that's added costs to Steam, MS Store, and so on, but I guess that's ok?
TheCatt wrote: I do not believe this is true. Epic allows anyone to publish, with a 12.5% take, iirc. But, if you want the guaranteed upfront payment, you have to sign an exclusivity agreement.
I'd have to dig back through to get the exact details, but I know a bunch of indy developers have refused to do business with EGS, and the details of your quote are unethical at best.

I'm all for reducing the standard take, but Epic is the bad guy here.
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Post by TheCatt »

Leisher wrote: Granted, no company has a "right" to make a profit, but when the company creates, manufactures, and markets their own devices and creates and manages the software for it, it's their house. They get to decide what works with it and what doesn't. They also get to charge an entry fee.
Until they become too big and charge monopolistic rents.
Leisher wrote: Nightclubs charge entry fees. They also dictate what products are sold and what music is played. A beer manufacturer doesn't just get to barge into the club and demand their product be sold. They also can't stand outside and sell it.
There's are a large # of nightclubs + beers. There's 1 iOS app store.
Leisher wrote: Google will now be doing the same, are they being unreasonable and monopolistic?
No. There are multiple Android app stores.
Leisher wrote: but Epic is the bad guy here
There are two bad guys.
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Post by Leisher »

TheCatt wrote: Until they become too big and charge monopolistic rents.
Industry standard is "monopolistic rent"?
TheCatt wrote: There's are a large # of nightclubs + beers. There's 1 iOS app store.
1 app store, but many, many device makers. PCs, Macs, Playstations, X-Boxes, Nintendos, Droid phones, Droid tablets, Windows Tablets, etc. Is Epic going to sue Remarkable, Blackberry, and pager makers next for not allowing their devices to play Fortnite? Should I sue my toaster's manufacturer as it doesn't fit all sizes of bread?
TheCatt wrote: No. There are multiple Android app stores.
To the detriment of Android users. The single App store is Apple's biggest selling point, and why they're the phone of choice for corporations. We want to take that away, why?
TheCatt wrote: There are two bad guys.
It's funny, but in another thread you do an awful lot of cheerleading for a lesser evil. Why can't I do that here? :D
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Post by TheCatt »

Leisher wrote: Industry standard is "monopolistic rent"?
It's monopolistic as with competition, lower rates would emerge.
Leisher wrote: Should I sue my toaster's manufacturer as it doesn't fit all sizes of bread?
Yes.
Leisher wrote: 1 app store, but many, many device makers. PCs, Macs, Playstations, X-Boxes, Nintendos, Droid phones, Droid tablets, Windows Tablets, etc. Is Epic going to sue Remarkable, Blackberry, and pager makers next for not allowing their devices to play Fortnite?
$500 bn of sales. That's big enough to be its own market.
Leisher wrote: The single App store is Apple's biggest selling point, and why they're the phone of choice for corporations. We want to take that away, why?
Because of market power. That's $$$ that could go to consumers or producers instead of the middleman.
Leisher wrote: It's funny, but in another thread you do an awful lot of cheerleading for a lesser evil.
lol. I don't think he's a lesser evil. I think Trump is a dumpster fire of evil. Biden's OK.
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Post by GORDON »

Leisher wrote:
TheCatt wrote: No. There are multiple Android app stores.
To the detriment of Android users. The single App store is Apple's biggest selling point, and why they're the phone of choice for corporations. We want to take that away, why?
I'd say that according to at least one game producer, there's only one iOS app store the the detriment of Apple users.
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Post by Leisher »

TheCatt wrote: It's monopolistic as with competition, lower rates would emerge.
But it's not monopolistic when you can get the exact same product elsewhere. (But don't debate this. Go down to the third point as I think that's where we actually disagree.)
TheCatt wrote: Yes.
Ha! This would be a hilarious filing. If it was successful, you'd have every lazy, shiftless prick in the world searching for other products that don't do every single thing they want it to do. You'd single handedly bring down the economy as companies wouldn't know what is still ok to sell, and courts would have even bigger backlogs.
TheCatt wrote: $500 bn of sales. That's big enough to be its own market.
I think this is the core point where we disagree. I don't think Apple devices are their own market. I think they're a niche market within a larger overall market.
TheCatt wrote: Because of market power. That's $$$ that could go to consumers or producers instead of the middleman.
But I look at the Droid and realize this would not be a win. Droids are a fucking nightmare thanks to nobody actually watching to see what gets released. At some point we need to protect consumers from the bad shit instead of just fleecing them for every cent we can get.
TheCatt wrote: lol. I don't think he's a lesser evil. I think Trump is a dumpster fire of evil. Biden's OK.
A discussion for elsewhere.
GORDON wrote: I'd say that according to at least one game producer, there's only one iOS app store the the detriment of Apple users.
And that game producer actively signs developers to exclusivity contracts and withholds their products from a competing platform.

I'm looking at the big picture, and I see a toxic wasteland on one phone and a secure storefront on the other. It'll be argued that the market will demand a fix to that toxic wasteland, but it hasn't happened yet on the Droid...
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Post by TheCatt »

Leisher wrote: Ha! This would be a hilarious filing. If it was successful, you'd have every lazy, shiftless prick in the world searching for other products that don't do every single thing they want it to do. You'd single handedly bring down the economy as companies wouldn't know what is still ok to sell, and courts would have even bigger backlogs.
Lol. I was just being funny.
Leisher wrote: I think this is the core point where we disagree. I don't think Apple devices are their own market. I think they're a niche market within a larger overall market.
And this is what a lot of monopoly law revolves around. Apple, shock, agrees with you. I'm going to say that a market the size of Sweden's GDP is large enough to be its own. And, that's just for the app store.
Leisher wrote: But I look at the Droid and realize this would not be a win.
With multiple app marketplaces on iOS, you could still choose the once that takes 30%. The core being "choice"
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Post by Leisher »

TheCatt wrote: And this is what a lot of monopoly law revolves around. Apple, shock, agrees with you. I'm going to say that a market the size of Sweden's GDP is large enough to be its own. And, that's just for the app store.
I simply don't think the monopoly laws were ready for the world now. Apple's app store isn't just a niche market, it's a market whose entire foundation was built by Apple and is operated by Apple. This was all done by design for the sake of quality and security (and profit, of course). A large part of what they're selling is their proprietary concepts and products, not to mention that quality and security. FYI, Nintendo has been doing this exact same thing for decades...
TheCatt wrote: With multiple app marketplaces on iOS, you could still choose the once that takes 30%. The core being "choice"
It hasn't worked in consumers' favor on Droids. However, with Google announcing they will start enforcing the 30% thing we'll see.
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Post by TheCatt »

New Chromecast with Google TV is interesting. Bought it when announced, had it for 1 day.

Basically, it's main thing is that it tries to aggregate all your content and present a "single pane of glass" to all your streaming apps. It worked pretty well for the few minutes I tried it, showing content from YTTV, Prime Video, Netflix, and HBO Max.
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Post by GORDON »

I actually looked at that closely when it was announced. Basically a Roku replacement, except HBO Max works on it?
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Post by TheCatt »

GORDON wrote: I actually looked at that closely when it was announced. Basically a Roku replacement, except HBO Max works on it?
Afaik, all streaming services work on it. HBO Max does.
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Post by GORDON »

I'm probably going to give it a look.
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Post by Leisher »

I think Chromecast suuuuuuuucks.

But that Roku knockoff looks promising. Only a matter of time before some service fights with them and then they don't have HBO Max or Netflix or whatever.
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Post by TheCatt »

Leisher wrote: Only a matter of time before some service fights with them and then they don't have HBO Max or Netflix or whatever.
Google seems to be trying to go out of their way to place nice, possibly as a differentiator. Hope it works.
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Post by Leisher »

I would guess they want to take over, just like any business.
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