General "Unions" Thread

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Leisher
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General "Unions" Thread

Post by Leisher »

Dems flee state to avoid vote.

Read the article. It's kind of anti-Republican, and seems to martyr the Dems until you get to the final few paragraphs. That's where all the details of what is under debate are actually discussed, and well, the measures seem to make sense.

I realize change is tough. I realize teachers get paid shit and get little respect. However, these people need to realize that the changes to their compensation would still make it better than almost everyone in the private sector. Plus, it'll avoid layoffs and help balance the state's economy.

On top of that, they won't be forced to pay union dues. I know a metric fuckton of teachers here in Ohio who have recently learned just how worthless their unions are and have openly wondered why they've been paying dues for years.

Again, taking less than what you're currently getting is a tough pill to swallow, but this specific bill isn't that bad. And what's the alternative? Borrow more money to pay wages? Put the state farther in debt? Watch 6,000 of the 25,000 protesters lose their jobs in budget cuts? Fuck the students over with fewer teachers and crowded classrooms? Maybe they can help drive the state into bankruptcy!

If they were in the private sector, not only would their compensation packages never have been that good, but at $300 million in the red, they'd be unemployed.

(Cue sarcasm) What was the name of that Republican who said "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country?"
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Post by GORDON »

Facebook is lighting up tonight with people posting this:

"I am a public employee. I am not the problem. Our retirement fund lost billions in wall street speculations that went awry. I followed the rules. Your community's teachers, police officers, paramedics, firefighters, child welfare, street, highway workers & others are NOT the enemy. We live here, pay taxes, work hard & are trying to support our families, too. If you are a public employee and agree, copy and repost"

Would be easy to be snarky.
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Post by Leisher »

Updates:
Police are hunting for the Dems.

This is ridiculous. How much more money will be wasted because of political games like this one? The Republicans are wrong to send out cops to look for the Dems, just as the Dems are wrong to hold up their state government when they know this bill will pass no matter what they do.

-Word is starting to leak out that not all the protesters are from Wisconsin... Why would anyone else be there you ask?
-Other states are closely watching what happens in Wisconsin because if this passes (and it will), and is a success, a lot of other states are going to do the same thing.
-Obama thinks the bill is more about attacking unions than balancing the budget.

The more I read about this bill, the more I agree with it.
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Post by GORDON »

I thought everyone knew unions trucked in more people when it was time to protest, to make it look like more people like them.
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Leisher
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Post by Leisher »

Dems now saying they might stay away for weeks.

No word on whether or not they're forfeit their tax payer funded salaries and pay back this tax payer funded "protest".
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
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Post by Leisher »

Update: The governor is warning of layoffs if Dems don't come back soon.

I'm amazed that these Dems have been shutting down their government, and abandoning the jobs they were elected to do, and the MSM is trying to paint them as heroes.

Nowhere has it been asked or reported about them giving back their salaries during this leave of absence. Nowhere has it been discussed about what their families are doing while these idiots are out of state.

More importantly, nowhere, and I mean fucking nowhere, has the Dems' alternatives been spelled out. Your state is 3.6 billion in the hole. The governor and the Republicans are trying to cut spending. Where are your proposals to cut spending?
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Post by Malcolm »

Why does a handful of malcontents walking out bring things to a screeching halt? Isn't there some sub-sub-sub-subrule somewhere that says if legislators willingly miss daily voting, debate, etc., that they've effectively forfeited their chance to have an effect? If I delivered an ultimatum not to work until everyone thought my way, I'd be fired in fairly short order.

Call a referendum in the next week. Have the state vote whether or not they give a fuck if a dozen jackasses decided to up and leave.




Edited By Malcolm on 1298401350
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Post by GORDON »

Cancel their direct deposit and watch how fast the come back to get their checks.
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Post by GORDON »

GORDON wrote:Cancel their direct deposit and watch how fast the come back to get their checks.
Ha!

http://www2.wnct.com/news....-804243
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Post by Leisher »

Gotta love this biased headline.

Just in case they change it later, the headline is:
Wis. Democrats filibuster to delay anti-union bill


Not "Wis. Dems filibuster to delay critical budget cuts" or "Wis. Dems filibuster to delay contentious bill", etc. No, the writer went with the "anti-union". Although in their defense, at least they had the stones to point this out:
The governor says the bill is needed to help solve the state's looming budget deficit, but Democrats see it as an all-out assault on unions, their staunchest campaign ally.


Yeah, that admission of a self serving motivation by the Dems comes in the 7th paragraph, but at least it's in there.
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Post by TheCatt »

State senators who miss two or more session days will no longer get paid through direct deposit. They'll have to pick up their checks in person on the Senate floor during a session.

LOL
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Post by TPRJones »

Leisher wrote:More importantly, nowhere, and I mean fucking nowhere, has the Dems' alternatives been spelled out. Your state is 3.6 billion in the hole. The governor and the Republicans are trying to cut spending. Where are your proposals to cut spending?
From what I understand, the unions and missing Dems have agreed to every measure that the Governor has proposed except for the one where the unions get shut down permanently. But that's not good enough for him, because this isn't about money as much as it is about getting those unions shut down.

I've heard that reported in many many places.
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Post by Leisher »

From what I understand, the unions and missing Dems have agreed to every measure that the Governor has proposed except for the one where the unions get shut down permanently. But that's not good enough for him, because this isn't about money as much as it is about getting those unions shut down.

I've heard that reported in many many places.


Please link one. Not doubting you, but I'd like to read it. I've only seen that the union was willing to take an 8% pay cut. I've also seen that one of the Republicans was suggesting making the ban on collective bargaining temporary.
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Post by TPRJones »

This is the first one that comes to mind (you can skip ahead to 0:53 if you like):

<div style="background-color:#000000;width:520px;"><div style="padding:4px;"><embed src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms: ... com:375041" width="512" height="288" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" base="." flashVars=""></embed></div></div>

But here's a couple of others I Googled up that are a little more explicit about it:

http://timesdelphic.com/2011....nt-cuts
Last week legislation introduced plans to cut government employees take-home pay by 8 percent. Government employees in Wisconsin will also have to pay 5.6 percent more toward their pension and 12 percent more toward their health insurance. In light of the deficit, affected Wisconsin unions have already conceded these cuts; the real hullabaloo in Madison is over the governor’s insistence of removing collective bargaining.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-li....ep.html
As you know, the Wisconsin public employee unions have agreed to accept the wage and benefit reductions that Walker has asked for, in exchange for dropping his proposal to roll back their bargaining rights. Walker has refused.

Now, I'm not a fan of unions at all. In fact I think busting up these government unions is probably a good idea. But I'm not liking the approach being taken here to do it. It's a bit disingenuous. I'd rather the Governor come right out and say it's the primary goal here instead of pretending it's all about the budget.




Edited By TPRJones on 1298522137
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Post by GORDON »

What I don't understand is why any company/state government/whatever allows itself to get entangled within a union. Unions/collective bargaining should be perfectly legal and acceptable, but the entity hiring people should have, in my opinion, as much right to say, "I won't hire anyone who wants to collectively bargain."

I don't get it.
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Post by TPRJones »

Generally they do, unless there are state or local laws against it (which as far as I know are pretty rare). But when a union is really dug in they don't have much choice. All the people who have the needed skills are union. And if there are some people who can cross the lines and do a good job, then the strong-arm tactics come in to play and it gets really ugly. It can get downright illegal, but if the cops are pro-union who's going to protect the company and scags from retribution? Not to mention the PR problems that can come up in those areas where so many of your potential customers are going to be pro-union.

No, better to build your company somewhere else where unions aren't so strong. Too bad if that hurts the economy where the unions are, the unions sure as hell don't care. As long as they get their dues and their power, that's all they care about.
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Post by Leisher »

Thanks TPR I hadn't seen any of that. Of course, there's a counter to it.

Granted it does seem like Walker is on a mission to kill the union, but one could easily point out that he has motive to make this decision without that being his primary goal.

For one thing, he didn't go after ALL public employee unions. Remember, the firefighters and cops aren't a part of this mess and they have unions (the Ohio bill does include them).

For another, who cares if the teachers' union is willing to make these concessions now? What will they ask for during their next labor negotiations? That's the big problem. 3.6 billion in debt isn't going to disappear overnight and anyone who thinks the union won't be trying to get back what they're giving up now in the next negotiations is delusional.

I believe the real compromise is from the Republican state senator who offered a proposal where the ban on collective bargaining would be temporary. Walker shot that down.

I wouldn't cry for any union that gets busted, but in this case, if Walker wants to end this situation, save some face, help prove it's about the deficit and not breaking the union, etc. then I think making that compromise would be in his best interest. Just don't put a date on the end of the ban, instead tie it to the state's deficit somehow. Make it so when the state is healthy again the union can negotiate again.
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Post by GORDON »

I guess this is the Rhetoric of When You Lose a Vote You Get to Riot and Storm the State House.

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Post by Leisher »

The legislation has passed.

I don't think either side handled this very well.

I found it interesting that over the past few days Walker switched gears and was willing to compromise, while the Dems also switched gears and raised their demands. I think that was the final straw.

I actually was going to post the article about the compromise yesterday, but never got around to it. I thought it was a great example of "give them an inch, and they'll take a mile" because he was apparently willing to back down on just about everything including allowing collective bargaining on their wages (unlimited), and the Dems were saying it wasn't enough. They said they wanted to be able to negotiate sick days and vacation time too.

The Dems had a deal in front of them and instead of compromising, which is what they claim they've wanted all along, they decided to try to get even more and not meet the Republicans half way.

Guess who paid the price in the end? Their supporters.

I wonder if the MSM will play up that angle or ignore it...
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