Immigration

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Leisher
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Post by Leisher »

TheCatt wrote:
Leisher wrote:
TheCatt wrote:
Same as native born.
That is very, very incorrect. Think about it...
Aside from that crime... the same.
Ok, back to being serious, I truly don't know if I can trust any of the numbers regarding illegals and their crime rates. Too much political bullshit. And while it is ridiculous to say the people coming here via illegal means commit more crimes than the people already here, it IS a fact that certain segments of society already here are more likely to commit crimes than others. Typically, poor people and those who have already committed a crime are far more likely to commit more crimes. So who are the people coming here? Rich people? And they've already committed a crime... So logically it would seem illegals would be far more likely to commit a crime than someone already here. Thus, if numbers show the illegals commit just as many crimes as the people already here, I wonder how they are arriving at those stats. Who are they comparing the groups to?
TheCatt wrote:
Leisher wrote: However, now do your numbers with "everyone" and see what you come up with.
Most economists estimate GDP growth of 50 to 150% for the US, based on the limited # of people who could actually make it to the US.
I typically find economists don't ever focus on the big picture. Hell, that was one thing that was preached during a recent class I took. Paraphrasing: "An economist is only going to factor in the information you provide." Point being, all the other issues that would arise from that situation, and would affect the GDP are not taken into account.

Let's get everyone in the world to move to the U.S. and watch our economy skyrocket! No other problems could possibly come up!

FYI, I'm FOR immigration. I'm against illegal immigration. However, I'm also not stupid enough to think the entire world's population should move to one area thinking it'll create a utopia.
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Leisher
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Post by Leisher »

GORDON wrote: They're dead because he was in the country illegally.
I mean, this isn't wrong.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
Vince
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Post by Vince »

Leisher wrote: Ok, back to being serious, I truly don't know if I can trust any of the numbers regarding illegals and their crime rates. Too much political bullshit. And while it is ridiculous to say the people coming here via illegal means commit more crimes than the people already here, it IS a fact that certain segments of society already here are more likely to commit crimes than others. Typically, poor people and those who have already committed a crime are far more likely to commit more crimes. So who are the people coming here? Rich people? And they've already committed a crime... So logically it would seem illegals would be far more likely to commit a crime than someone already here. Thus, if numbers show the illegals commit just as many crimes as the people already here, I wonder how they are arriving at those stats. Who are they comparing the groups to?
This is where the problem comes in. There are many jurisdictions that do not include the immigration status with the arrest data. To arrive at the "illegals crime rate is on par with the citizen crime rate", they mix the data sets. If you restrict the data to only jurisdictions that report illegal status with arrest records, the rate is pretty significantly higher. Adding the generic crime numbers as "non illegals" when they are not separated waters down the illegals rate while raising the legals crime stats.
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Cakedaddy
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Post by Cakedaddy »

GORDON wrote:I.dont care about all the variables that led to the teacher and illegal being at the same intersection. The only thing that matters is the end result. They're dead because he was in the country illegally.
No. They are dead because he was driving a car. That can't be disputed.
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Post by GORDON »

I dispute it. If he were driving the car in Mexico, were he should have been, the teacher in Ohio would be alive. I dare you to go to what's left of her family and tell them it was just bad luck, and couldn't have been helped, and illegal immigration is really good for America, and for the economy overall.

This will help you track them down:
Whitney Meinke, 33

Daughter, Wife, Mother, Teacher & Friend

Allegedly killed by

Alejandro Ramirez-Jaramillo, 26

Illegal alien Alejandro Ramirez-Jaramillo, 26, had been arrested for causing the March 26, 2017 motor vehicle accident which resulted in the death of Whitney Meinke, 33, her father and mother. Three other people were also injured in the crash that reportedly happened on North Cousino Road in Jerusalem Township, Ohio.

Jaramillo's passengers, Javier Cervera, 38 and Pedro Martinez [of unknown legal status in the U.S.] were two of the injured who were transported to local hospitals.

Jaramillo told authorities that he lived in Asheboro, N.C. and did construction work.

Jaramillo has been charged with three counts of aggravated vehicle homicide and Judge Jeffery Keller set Jaramillo's bond at $100,000 per count. Through an interpreter, Jaramillo pleaded not guilty in Oregon Municipal Court and remains in the Lucas County jail.


Ms. Meinke graduated in 2002 from Clay High School and received her Bachelors of Education from Lourdes University. She was a third grade teacher at RC Waters Elementary School in Oak Harbor, Ohio. Ms. Meinke is survived by her husband Luke Meinke and their two young sons.
But really, I'd be satisfied of your convictions if you find any rape survivor or family of a murder victim of an illegal, and tell them it would have happened anyway. Because as of now, you haven't convinced me.

I was going to end this post with the numbers of actual murders and rapes committed by illegals, but that data has been surprisingly difficult to find. Lots of commentary on the first 5 google search results for "illegal immigrant violent crime stats fbi", but no actual numbers.
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Cakedaddy
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Post by Cakedaddy »

I guess the important take away from your argument is: You should judge an entire group of people based on the actions of just one of them.

To me, you are arguing more against drunk driving than illegal immigration. And that's what I have issue with. Saying "Illegal immigrants are bad because one killed a family" is just stupid. That's not going to change minds or cause change or anything else.
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Post by GORDON »

I'm saying that one dead or raped person is my threshold, if it could have been avoided. People who run sanctuary cities and stuff have a much higher threshold. I think they should be held responsible for every murder and rape they assist, in illegally harboring an illegal immigrant.

Illegal immigrants are bad, because they're illegal and shouldn't be in the country. Every crime they commit is one that didn't have to happen.
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Post by TheCatt »

I'm trying to argue about legal immigration, but everyone keeps talking about illegal ones.
It's not me, it's someone else.
GORDON
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Post by GORDON »

I thought it was weird that you kept doing that.

BTW I am not concerned enough about legal immigration to go sign a petition or anything.
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Post by Vince »

TheCatt wrote: I'm trying to argue about legal immigration, but everyone keeps talking about illegal ones.
I think because most people don't have a problem with legal immigration.
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren
Leisher
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Post by Leisher »

Vince wrote:
TheCatt wrote: I'm trying to argue about legal immigration, but everyone keeps talking about illegal ones.
I think because most people don't have a problem with legal immigration.
This.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
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Cakedaddy
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Post by Cakedaddy »

The more I read this thread, the dumber it gets.
Leisher
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Post by Leisher »

Cakedaddy wrote: The more I read this thread, the dumber it gets.
As dumb as that response? :D

C'mon, that's a horrible comment. A vague statement condemning everyone else and everything they've said, and based solely on your opinion?

Do better.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
TheCatt
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Post by TheCatt »

Right, but what about MORE legal immigration? I started this conversation trying to talk about open borders, or various degrees thereof. We pretty much allow open borders for capital (money) and have for decades, but not for human capital.
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TheCatt
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Post by TheCatt »

Legal immigrant attacked with acid and told to go home. Before you scream Jussie Smollett, the police have arrested a perpetrator and it appears to be legit so far.
A man has been arrested after allegedly throwing acid in the face of a US citizen, who says his attacker told him to "go back to (his) country."

Milwaukee police say they arrested a 61-year-old man in connection with the attack against Mahud Villalaz that caused second-degree burns. Charges will be brought forward to the District Attorney's Office in the next couple of days, Milwaukee Police Public Information Officer Sgt. Sheronda Grant confirmed to CNN.
The attack occurred after the two men got into an argument Friday night, and the suspect threw acid on Villalaz, the police department said.
Villalaz told CNN affiliate WISN the argument was over how Villalaz had parked his car.
Villalaz said his attacker called him an "illegal" and told him to "get out of this country" before throwing acid in his face, WISN reported
"I believe (I) am a victim of a hate crime because (of) how he approached me," Villalaz told WISN.
Villalaz is a 42-year-old welder who has been in the United States for 19 years, according to Darryl Morin, president of Forward Latino. Morin is helping the family manage media requests and deal with the incident, he told CNN.
Morin said Villalaz is a United States citizen originally from Peru.
Who the fuck just has acid in hand?
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Leisher
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Post by Leisher »

TheCatt wrote: Right, but what about MORE legal immigration?
To help who? Overseas countries or this one? Just curious as to which angle you want us to take when answering.

I don't care if the 14 million illegals here get legalized, as long as they do it properly. (Well...13 million of those 14. Got to figure there's a decent portion of them we don't want. The murderers, drug runners, gang members, etc.)

I want our immigrants to go through the proper vetting process, to learn the language, and abide by the laws. If they're already here, then fine, let them continue to live here while going through the process...IF...they break no crimes, stay employed, pay taxes, are in the legalization process, and are taking English classes.

Is that so much to ask?
TheCatt wrote: Legal immigrant attacked with acid and told to go home.
That just sounds like a lunatic. I believe the moment you throw acid on another human being, you should just be removed from society permanently.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
TheCatt
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Post by TheCatt »

Leisher wrote: I want our immigrants to go through the proper vetting process, to learn the language, and abide by the laws. If they're already here, then fine, let them continue to live here while going through the process...IF...they break no crimes, stay employed, pay taxes, are in the legalization process, and are taking English classes.

Is that so much to ask?
All reasonable to me.
Leisher wrote: To help who? Overseas countries or this one? Just curious as to which angle you want us to take when answering.
Whichever you think. It's a pretty open-ended question. I, personally, try to look at it holistically, rather than one country vs the other.
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Post by Leisher »

TheCatt wrote: Whichever you think. It's a pretty open-ended question. I, personally, try to look at it holistically, rather than one country vs the other.
I'm all for helping people, but not at the expense of other people. That's why the country designation is important. It's why we, as a society, don't have an "open houses" policy. In theory, it's beautiful, but reality is a completely different thing.

Human nature is the #1 variable that is never accounted for in utopia policies.

My stance is while I don't want to stop the flow of immigrants into this country, I want them to come legally. Additionally, I think we should be doing everything in our power to strengthen other countries, particularly our neighbors. Throwing money at them isn't the proper solution though, because we all know that money isn't ending up where it should...
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
TheCatt
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Post by TheCatt »

Leisher wrote: I'm all for helping people, but not at the expense of other people.
So... we should stop technology and automation? We should cease trade? I mean, there will always be winners and losers.
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Leisher
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Post by Leisher »

TheCatt wrote:
Leisher wrote: I'm all for helping people, but not at the expense of other people.
So... we should stop technology and automation? We should cease trade? I mean, there will always be winners and losers.
No, that doesn't fit what I'm saying. I agree there will always be winners and losers, but while it's acceptable to lose your job to a legal immigrant, it's not acceptable to lose your job or life to an illegal immigrant.

Let's say you had 2 slices of pizza leftover from the previous night. You plan to take them to work for your lunch. If your wife or one of your kids eats them, it sucks, but it's acceptable. If someone broke in your house and ate them...
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
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