Gender pill

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GORDON
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Gender pill

Post by GORDON »

I made a comment earlier and it got me to thinking..... if they invent a pill to make you feel comfortable in your own skin... to make you no longer feel like you are a man trapped in a woman's body, or a pony trapped in a man's body, or whatever.....

Good or bad thing?

Also a sexuality pill. Would the gays riot?

Do we force people to take it?
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Alhazad
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Re: Gender pill

Post by Alhazad »

GORDON wrote:I made a comment earlier and it got me to thinking..... if they invent a pill to make you feel comfortable in your own skin... to make you no longer feel like you are a man trapped in a woman's body, or a pony trapped in a man's body, or whatever.....

Good or bad thing?
More choices for treatment are good.
Do we force people to take it?
Should we? No.

Will we? America has no moderate party, so it depends on who gets elected.
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TPRJones
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Re: Gender pill

Post by TPRJones »

Things cannot be good or evil in themselves, they can only be used for good or evil. The proposed pill can no more be good or evil than a bullet or a telephone poll.

Personally as a libertarian (well, anarchist, but whatever) I think more choice is always good.

But forcing it on someone? Hell no. I would riot about that. But that's not going to be a danger. The real danger will be people forced through pressure from their family or peer groups into making a permanent change to themselves that they don't want to make.

Although if you also postulate that the end result will always be a happy person then fine I guess, but happy drugs are never that easy and free of consequences.
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Malcolm
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Re: Gender pill

Post by Malcolm »

I made a comment earlier and it got me to thinking..... if they invent a pill to make you feel comfortable in your own skin... to make you no longer feel like you are a man trapped in a woman's body, or a pony trapped in a man's body, or whatever.....
They have one. I guarantee you an IV drip of that will drown out all the other fucks you think you might give about anything. You could also argue fatal poisoning puts someone at ease regardless of their hangups.
Good or bad thing?
That really depends on the mechanism by which it works and the individual in question. Is it permanent or is it like the pill in Catt's favourite Christian Bale movie where you have to take it every day? Without further info, I'd generally say those who indulge would be fucking up and should only consider it as an absolute last resort. I am loathe to temper one's natural disposition and psyche. I am also a firm believer that no matter what neuroses and psychoses one has been dealt, one must learn to deal with them properly and not be a maelstrom of chaos or dickishness. You can't learn that without facing your mental knots straight on. Unless you're rewiring their brain on a fundamental level, you're only destroying, masking, or numbing what would typically be present. Even if you could make a pill to reprogram a mind, it raises at least as many concerns as all the sci-fi shit that could happen if you started altering your own DNA.
Also a sexuality pill. Would the gays riot?
Same issue as the pill above.
Do we force people to take it?
No. Hell, no. Fuck hell, no.
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Vince
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Re: Gender pill

Post by Vince »

TPRJones wrote:But forcing it on someone? Hell no. I would riot about that. But that's not going to be a danger. The real danger will be people forced through pressure from their family or peer groups into making a permanent change to themselves that they don't want to make.
What about a drug that would permanently remove the effects of paranoid schizophrenia? Would you feel as adamant about forcing that on someone? Or the peer pressure to take that drug?
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren
TPRJones
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Re: Gender pill

Post by TPRJones »

Yes and no. I would not favor forcing it by law, people should be free to make those decisions for themselves and retain their freedom right up until they actually cause direct harm to others of some sort and have to face consequences of that crime.

I'm less inclined to be against peer or family pressure about the case you outline, however. But I wouldn't consider that contradiction because the two cases are not parallel. Paranoid schizophrenia is a measurable failure in brain chemistry that in your proposition can be treated to return it to a fully functional state. If you are going to assert that sexual orientation or a person's gender perception and preferences are also a measurable failure in brain chemistry then I will argue against that assertation.
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Re: Gender pill

Post by GORDON »

TPRJones wrote:If you are going to assert that sexual orientation or a person's gender perception and preferences are also a measurable failure in brain chemistry then I will argue against that assertation.
What organ, besides the brain, would you suggest has such influence over ones moods and desires?
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Alhazad
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Re: Gender pill

Post by Alhazad »

GORDON wrote:
TPRJones wrote:If you are going to assert that sexual orientation or a person's gender perception and preferences are also a measurable failure in brain chemistry then I will argue against that assertation.
What organ, besides the brain, would you suggest has such influence over ones moods and desires?
Testicles. Castrated men live longer and are happier and calmer.
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Re: Gender pill

Post by GORDON »

Alhazad wrote:
GORDON wrote:
TPRJones wrote:If you are going to assert that sexual orientation or a person's gender perception and preferences are also a measurable failure in brain chemistry then I will argue against that assertation.
What organ, besides the brain, would you suggest has such influence over ones moods and desires?
Testicles. Castrated men live longer and are happier and calmer.
So, hormones affect the brain's moods and desires? So isn't it reasonable to assume that a hormone misbalance could cause one to feel like they are in the wrong skin? So isn't it possibly something that could be fixed, with a pill?

Or does living the lifestyle trump everything else? Doesn't seem that great to me, to be constantly unhappy with ones anatomy, but then I don't suffer from it.

I'd take the fucking pill and be happy there was a fix.

This is all assuming there isn't an actual brain structure problem that couldn't be fixed with a pill.
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Malcolm
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Re: Gender pill

Post by Malcolm »

What about a drug that would permanently remove the effects of paranoid schizophrenia? Would you feel as adamant about forcing that on someone? Or the peer pressure to take that drug?
Still shouldn't be forced. People have to want their mental ills cured and to keep them away or they'll find a new neurosis very quickly. Forcing someone to medicate away part of their brain, even if it's not working correctly according to you and lots of others, even if it's for their ultimate betterment, should not be done.
I'd take the fucking pill and be happy there was a fix.
You don't have a fix, you have a crutch. The pill did the work. If you can't be put at ease with the personality you were born with except by use of drugs ... then isn't the taking the meds just putting Spackle over a fissure? The next time you find some hidden corner of your psyche you aren't comfy with, do you plan to take another pill?
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Re: Gender pill

Post by GORDON »

Deaf people sometimes want to deafen their healthy babies, too, so they can live the life.
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Malcolm
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Re: Gender pill

Post by Malcolm »

GORDON wrote:Deaf people sometimes want to deafen their healthy babies, too, so they can live the life.
That seems kind of stupid, tossing away a sense you originally had. Much in the same way that tossing away a portion of your personality seems stupid just because you can't come to terms with it and are effectively IDKFA'ing.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
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Re: Gender pill

Post by GORDON »

That seems kind of stupid, tossing away a sense you originally had.
Are you suggesting it is stupid to cut off your penis because it doesn't feel right, when there could be a brain fix?

WHy are you so filled with hate?
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Malcolm
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Re: Gender pill

Post by Malcolm »

GORDON wrote:
That seems kind of stupid, tossing away a sense you originally had.
Are you suggesting it is stupid to cut off your penis because it doesn't feel right, when there could be a brain fix?

WHy are you so filled with hate?
Your scenario involved a parent intentionally deafening their kid. An adult can determine wtf they want to do with their own genitals which may very well be at odds with the thoughts in their head. What's more, a conscious and sentient person regardless of any age should have at least a say in the development of their sexuality and not have it fucking dictated by others, as it is by nature an intensely personal thing due to our overgrown brains. Removing one's cock and balls should be given a great, great deal of very careful and considerate thought. But if your scenario had a magic pill, I suppose I can call into existence magical surgery that perfectly transitions a man to a woman and back with all reproductive and physical attributes intact. Even if that shit was available, I wouldn't recommend going into it lightly. But if that's the way your head's wired, trying to go against that grain is stupid and destructive, both to others and self.

Now, if you want to draw this to the absurd, South Park-like extent of people trying to swap up species, I'll point out that we have a tight and strict scientific definition of what differentiates one from another, just as we have those for biological genders. Psychological, not so much ... and that's some shit perhaps unique to humans or not. For all we know, some of the more intelligent critters fret over who's banging who and how that goes beyond the transfer of genetic material or territorial claims.

Finally, I am filled with hate for other reasons besides want of control over other people's junk and minds.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
TPRJones
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Re: Gender pill

Post by TPRJones »

GORDON wrote:
TPRJones wrote:If you are going to assert that sexual orientation or a person's gender perception and preferences are also a measurable failure in brain chemistry then I will argue against that assertation.
What organ, besides the brain, would you suggest has such influence over ones moods and desires?
My issue is not with the word "measurable". It is with the word "failure". Sexual orientation that is other than heterosexual is not broken. A boy wanting to wear a dress or a girl wanting to be a mechanic is not broken. It's just not the way you want them to be.

I'd take the fucking pill and be happy there was a fix.
I find that impossible to believe. You wouldn't want anyone changing who you are.

If I were to give you a pill that would change your mental makeup so that you would love your MIL and be happy to do everything she asks of you and take care of her and be perfectly happy with the whole situation, would you take it? If not why not, why not just "take the fucking pill and be happy there was a fix"?

Deaf people sometimes want to deafen their healthy babies, too, so they can live the life.
That seems kind of stupid, tossing away a sense you originally had.
Are you suggesting it is stupid to cut off your penis because it doesn't feel right, when there could be a brain fix?
Not, but if you cut off your healthy baby's penis because you don't like your own, then maybe the cases would be parallel. But they aren't.
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Re: Gender pill

Post by Vince »

TPRJones wrote:My issue is not with the word "measurable". It is with the word "failure". Sexual orientation that is other than heterosexual is not broken. A boy wanting to wear a dress or a girl wanting to be a mechanic is not broken. It's just not the way you want them to be.
If your car doesn't start, is it broken, or just not the way you want it to be? Just because a baker doesn't want to bake a same sex wedding cake doesn't mean he's a bigot, just he isn't the way you think he should be. Hey! This is fun

TPRJones wrote:I find that impossible to believe. You wouldn't want anyone changing who you are.
I go back to being a recovering alcoholic. During that first year or so of recovery, I'd have taken a pill in a heart beat.
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Malcolm
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Re: Gender pill

Post by Malcolm »

People aren't cars because we aren't built for a specific purpose. Try again.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
TPRJones
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Re: Gender pill

Post by TPRJones »

If your car doesn't start, is it broken, or just not the way you want it to be?
When my car becomes a sentient being it can make it's own decisions. But it has not.
Just because a baker doesn't want to bake a same sex wedding cake doesn't mean he's a bigot, just he isn't the way you think he should be.
Sure he's a bigot. And he's free to stop baking wedding cakes. Nothing broken about that, the baker is just making a choice about how he or she interacts with society, and society has set up rules that mean those choices have consequences.

I fail to see how any of this is in any way relevant to what you quoted.
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Re: Gender pill

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TPRJones wrote: If I were to give you a pill that would change your mental makeup so that you would love your MIL and be happy to do everything she asks of you and take care of her and be perfectly happy with the whole situation, would you take it? If not why not, why not just "take the fucking pill and be happy there was a fix"?
We actually have her on pills to try to make her less of a fucking bitch, and therefore more likable and easier to get along with. Your example is like saying the whole world needs to change for the broken person..... which, I guess, is the crux of the entire issue, anyway.

Remember when most people had no opinion about transsexuals, one way or another? The SJWs are really making great strides for their cause. Now millions of people resent them.
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Re: Gender pill

Post by GORDON »

TPRJones wrote:Sexual orientation that is other than heterosexual is not broken.
That right there is the entire debate broken down bumper-sticker sized.
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