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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:44 pm
by GORDON
From here.
Edited By GORDON on 1194654454
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:07 pm
by TPRJones
I think partly it's because we value violence more highly. Bear with me.
The current PC belief on violence is that "violence solves nothing". It's not valued at all. It is a worthless topic. On the other hand, those of us not so stupid as that DO know that violence solves some things. That it's the last resort in certain situations, and should be used sparingly. We are taught how to manage it, to use it as a tool, through activities while grouping up such as some sports and hunting and the like. The left don't get those lessons, don't learn to respect it's controlled use and don't learn the ramifications of it's use during their formative years. So when the are old enough to be zelous enough about something to resort to it, they don't know enough about it's value to use it wisely.
That doesn't address the mid-east issue, of course. It's more about domestic violence in the US. But I think it's part of the problem here. More simply put: anything you don't teach your children yourself they will eventually learn anyway, and odds are high that they'll learn it wrong.
Edited By TPRJones on 1184717308
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:14 pm
by TheCatt
On the Vietnam/body count thing... I thought that was McNamara's idea? (Sec of Defense) Am I wrong?
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:42 pm
by GORDON
TheCatt wrote:On the Vietnam/body count thing... I thought that was McNamara's idea? (Sec of Defense) Am I wrong?
Sounds familiar. But unless the government was running the media in the 60's and 70's, they still chose to report it.
Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:09 pm
by Malcolm
The potential of westernization taking hold in the Middle East is proportional to the amount of force we're prepared to use to drag them into this century, kicking & screaming violently.
Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:50 am
by unkbill
Malcolm wrote:The potential of westernization taking hold in the Middle East is proportional to the amount of force we're prepared to use to drag them into this century, kicking & screaming violently.
Instead of dragging them forward how about getting them to go back. Things I have learned.
Muhammaed started a conduct of war rules and was carried forward by Abu Bakr who succeded him when they conquered Syria from the Byzantines. The rules included: Do not mutalate dead bodies, Can not kill womaen, children or aged men. Do not harm fruitful trees or livestock.
To be a soldier you must; Be 15, Be in sound mind and body, join of free will, have permission from your parents, Be debt free(We could give them all creditcards)
Martyrdom was good but suicide was forbidden. I wish Muhammed was still there hero and they followed his rules. It is almost as if they are doing the opposite of his teachings. It went south and hasn't been seen in awhile.(At least in the mid-east) How did it all go so wrong?
Edited By unkbill on 1184773875
Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:15 pm
by Alhazad
unkbill wrote:Instead of dragging them forward how about getting them to go back. Things I have learned.
Muhammaed started a conduct of war rules and was carried forward by Abu Bakr who succeded him when they conquered Syria from the Byzantines. The rules included: Do not mutalate dead bodies, Can not kill womaen, children or aged men. Do not harm fruitful trees or livestock.
To be a soldier you must; Be 15, Be in sound mind and body, join of free will, have permission from your parents, Be debt free(We could give them all creditcards)
Martyrdom was good but suicide was forbidden. I wish Muhammed was still there hero and they followed his rules. It is almost as if they are doing the opposite of his teachings. It went south and hasn't been seen in awhile.(At least in the mid-east) How did it all go so wrong?
My guess would be a sense of entitlement.
Same reason people claim to follow MLK's teachings and then do the exact opposite.
Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:46 pm
by GORDON
unkbill wrote:Malcolm wrote:The potential of westernization taking hold in the Middle East is proportional to the amount of force we're prepared to use to drag them into this century, kicking & screaming violently.
Instead of dragging them forward how about getting them to go back. Things I have learned.
Muhammaed started a conduct of war rules and was carried forward by Abu Bakr who succeded him when they conquered Syria from the Byzantines. The rules included: Do not mutalate dead bodies, Can not kill womaen, children or aged men. Do not harm fruitful trees or livestock.
To be a soldier you must; Be 15, Be in sound mind and body, join of free will, have permission from your parents, Be debt free(We could give them all creditcards)
Martyrdom was good but suicide was forbidden. I wish Muhammed was still there hero and they followed his rules. It is almost as if they are doing the opposite of his teachings. It went south and hasn't been seen in awhile.(At least in the mid-east) How did it all go so wrong?
That's interesting. So who is warping the religion?
Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:26 pm
by Malcolm
GORDON wrote:That's interesting. So who is warping the religion?
I been saying for years that the local psycho clerics over there are nothing more than spiritual warlords, attempting to be warrior-priest types, the likes of which are usually reserved for Sikhism. At some point, it became fashionable to blame the West for all their fucking problems as their own medieval, Draconian policies hampered any chance for economic or social development of any kind. & I think the fuckers in charge like it that way. That means all power is consolidated in their hands. If you live in a shitty third-world police state, you daily activities consist of staying alive. You're more than willing to let your local priest tell you how to perceive the world and all the non-Muslim devils in it.
All in all, the cradle of civilization may be pissed off that significant portions of the world have surpassed it in almost every way that matters.
Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:29 pm
by GORDON
So... who do you kill to fix the problem?
Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:36 pm
by Alhazad
Everybody.
Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:55 pm
by Malcolm
GORDON wrote:So... who do you kill to fix the problem?
Damnit.
This is not a war that can be won by killing the other side, unless you plan, almost literally, to go from mosque to mosque executing people. Society is maintained by the people in power doing one of two things (gross oversimplification, but the most expedient response I can give) : the gov't beating the populous into submission, the gov't bribing the populous into submission. One can read "submission" as "not rebelling or otherwise wanting to dethrone those in power." The clerics are bribing the populous. They have answers to their problems & outlets for their frustration & hatred. And you know what? They're winning. Not physically, of course. We got tanks rolling over their sands. But they got the folks over there mentally entrenched. So much so, in fact, that in the battle of wills, religious zeal is beating common sense and basic humanity. Our monetary & military might are the only reasons we're hanging in.
If you ever want to see militant Islam take a nosedive, the rebellion must come from within. I would suggest doing everything possible to facilitate misinformation & infighting amongst the eight jillion different variations on Islam over there.
Where to begin? Jesus goddamn Christ, there's gotta be some sect of Muslims over there that we can entice to give us the inside info on the situation over there. Once the foot's in the door, lather, rinse, repeat. Everyone has a weakness. Everyone & everything. If we can't find it & exploit it, that just means the people who should be doing so are incompetent & need to hand over the reins to someone qualified.
Every fucking strategy over there should start with the sentence, "Let's pretend we don't have immediate access to a massive army with all the latest toys."
Every strategy should include trying to get in good w\ as many Muslims sects as will play ball w\ us. Not all of them over there are steadfast in their hatred. Find them. Utilize them. Goddamnit, is Sun Tzu not taught to U.S. military commanders?
Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:10 pm
by GORDON
Malcolm wrote:This is not a war that can be won by killing the other side, unless you plan, almost literally, to go from mosque to mosque executing people.
Outstanding plan.
We'll name the Op after you.
Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:02 pm
by Malcolm
We can call it Operation King Bastard.
Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:42 pm
by unkbill
Malcolm wrote:GORDON wrote:So... who do you kill to fix the problem?
Damnit.
This is not a war that can be won by killing the other side, unless you plan, almost literally, to go from mosque to mosque executing people.
I think you might be right as far as the middle east is concerned. But what about the " GOOD" Moslems. I really do you get heart sick about my wifes family. They really are some of the best, honest ,etc people I've known. But when it comes to Islear I have heard some not so nice remarks. I think it is her up-bringing. I think if she ever met a Jew she would cave in and like them.Just my opion.
Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:47 pm
by unkbill
And that has been my opion for some time. Arm each side to the hilt. Moslem, Isreal and the last man standing is the victor. I know, that is just to simple.
Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:55 pm
by unkbill
Malcolm wrote:GORDON wrote:That's interesting. So who is warping the religion?
I been saying for years that the local psycho clerics over there are nothing more than spiritual warlords,
And I agree 100%.
Some lame president, whoever at the time, for taking away the right to assinate heads of state or there smaller peeons. Billy missed. but I aslo heard Bush backed off of a mission. Put carter down and his mission crashed but at least the MF put it on the line.
Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:06 am
by DoctorChaos
I was thinking about it. Malcolm had a great idea in pitting one sect against another. Maybe having ex al Qaeda advising the Joint Chiefs.
Short of that, maybe checking out the mosques with the extremist clerics and then...
Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:27 am
by GORDON
I don't think al qeada is doing anything the viet cong didn't do. And we modeled Navy Seal tactics after what we learned from the cong. So it's just a matter of having the will to fight the war they want to fight.
Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:35 am
by Malcolm
GORDON wrote:So it's just a matter of having the will to fight the war they want to fight.
The war they'd prefer to fight involves grouping all their suicide bombers & coordinating them in large number of independent attacks, then maybe setting off a few more cleverly placed explosives followed up by whatever ranged warfare (surgical strikes or hit & runs w\ RPGs & whatever else they can throw/shoot/fire/project that goes "boom") they can muster. We will never get the massive direct confrontation to take out a significant amount of them at once. Unless you are a fan of having troops stay over there for the next half dozen or so decades, I would suggest recruiting more folk to do the hunting. That can either be a titanic, plodding military solution (like deploying infantry in unheard of numbers) or elegant approach. Seriously, if we can't turn the approximately one hundred fifty bitching, bickering groups of Muslims to our advantage, our military strategy over there is slow & inefficient at best and a fucking joke at worst. & either way, it's looks like we don't know what the fuck we're doing.
Edited By Malcolm on 1184856090