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Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:17 pm
by Leisher
Or you could go to jail.

Clearly this chick was guilty of talking that kid into and through his suicide, but this is an interesting precedent.

Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:35 pm
by Malcolm
Michelle Carter was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter Friday in the 2014 death of her boyfriend, who poisoned himself by inhaling carbon monoxide in his pickup truck, a Massachusetts judge ruled.
That sounds exactly like what she did.
Criminally negligent manslaughter is variously referred to as criminally negligent homicide in the United States, and gross negligence manslaughter in England and Wales. In Scotland and some Commonwealth of Nations jurisdictions the offence of culpable homicide might apply.

It occurs where death results from serious negligence, or, in some jurisdictions, serious recklessness. A high degree of negligence is required to warrant criminal liability. A related concept is that of willful blindness, which is where a defendant intentionally puts himself or herself in a position where the defendant will be unaware of facts which would render him or her liable.

Criminally negligent manslaughter occurs where there is an omission to act when there is a duty to do so, or a failure to perform a duty owed, which leads to a death. The existence of the duty is essential because the law does not impose criminal liability for a failure to act unless a specific duty is owed to the victim. It is most common in the case of professionals who are grossly negligent in the course of their employment. An example is where a doctor fails to notice a patient's oxygen supply has disconnected and the patient dies (R v Adomako). Another example could be leaving a child locked in a car on a hot day.
This is no different than encouraging a mentally unstable dude to leap off a bridge. You were seriously reckless or negligent in informing the appropriate authorities that a suicidal guy were on the mental edge of doing it. Not only that, you fucking gave him motivation and support to go through with it. Again, reckless and negligent.

Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:40 pm
by GORDON
I'm not sure if I think texting words should be illegal.

I dunno.

Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:56 pm
by Malcolm
GORDON wrote: I'm not sure if I think texting words should be illegal.

I dunno.
Repeatedly telling someone with a history of suicide attempts that they should do it just once more and give it the old college try seems willfully negligent. But I suspect that's not what's getting her thrown in the slammer.
"She admits in ... texts that she did nothing: She did not call the police or Mr. Roy's family" after hearing his last breaths during a phone call, Moniz said. "And, finally, she did not issue a simple additional instruction: Get out of the truck."
THAT is. Standing by idly while you know shit like that's going down is criminal. This isn't passing on an attempt to grab someone from a burning building. There is no danger to her in calling 911 and saying, "Hey, this guy's dying of carbon monoxide poisoning. You should go revive him."

Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:02 pm
by GORDON
The only thing that got him in the truck... and kept him from getting out of the truck... was her texts?

That's some strong fucking mojo.

Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:20 pm
by Malcolm
GORDON wrote: The only thing that got him in the truck... and kept him from getting out of the truck... was her texts?

That's some strong fucking mojo.
You have to be kidding me. Simply put: she neglected to contact the appropriate authorities, anonymously or otherwise, when she had good reason to believe someone was in the process of dying in a non-instantaneous manner. There was zero risk in her doing so, and it was well within her abilities and means at the time. The only possible defense I could see her pleading is that she was in a fucked up state and couldn't dial 911. He didn't blow his head off, he asphyxiated over a period of several minutes. There's no other excuse for that lack of action. There's no evidence he was an asshole, either. If this was some prick that smacked her around regularly or was a closest pedo, I might be more lenient.

Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:35 pm
by Leisher
Huge, huge difference between someone randomly saying "Kill yourself" on a message board or text in anger or disgust and actually walking someone who trusts you through the process and telling them they're right to do so.

Hundreds of texts.

This bitch was Jim Jones or David Koresch, she just had a much smaller audience.

Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:29 pm
by Leisher
Saw someone elsewhere compare her to Charles Manson. Good point.

Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:56 am
by Vince
GORDON wrote: I'm not sure if I think texting words should be illegal.

I dunno.
Yeah, I think I tend to lean towards the "personal responsibility" side on this. Not that she isn't a monster, but the shark in Jaws wasn't a criminal. Just a shark.

Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:42 am
by Leisher
Vince wrote: Yeah, I think I tend to lean towards the "personal responsibility" side on this.
So when he told her he was having second thoughts, and she talked him out of them and to go through with it, that was ok and she bears no responsibility for then walking him through the act? She talked him into it, told him it's what he had to do, told him how to do it, told him how much better off the world will be without him, and talked him back into it when he second guessed it, but she's not responsible.

I'm on board with people taking responsibility for their own actions, but there is a line. If Mayweather broke his leg prior to his fight with MacGregor, would you expect Mayweather to fight anyway? Of course not. So why don't we take into account people's mental health? This guy was mentally weak and vulnerable. That's when she took advantage. He, absolutely, still bears responsibility for his own actions, but she is not without guilt.

Again, do you feel Charles Manson should be out of prison? After all, he didn't do anything! How about Jim Jones? David Koresh? The people running Heaven's Gate?

Taking a more recent example, Gordon believed in this article which blamed the MSM and left wing talking heads for the GOP shooter. Show me the difference. (And let me note that I also believe that article to be correct.)
Vince wrote: Not that she isn't a monster, but the shark in Jaws wasn't a criminal. Just a shark.
This is just a bad analogy. You can't compare a fish being a fish and a human being talking another human being into committing suicide.

Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:25 pm
by Vince
If I tell someone to jump off a bridge and they're mentally ill and they do it, am I responsible?

Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:59 pm
by GORDON
Vince wrote: If I tell someone to jump off a bridge and they're mentally ill and they do it, am I responsible?
According to this court decision, yes.

Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:28 pm
by Vince
GORDON wrote:
Vince wrote: If I tell someone to jump off a bridge and they're mentally ill and they do it, am I responsible?
According to this court decision, yes.
And that's my problem with it.

Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:36 pm
by TheCatt
Vince wrote: If I tell someone to jump off a bridge and they're mentally ill and they do it, am I responsible?
I don't think that meets the standard, but I'm no expert in Massachusetts law. But if you did it repeatedly, constantly, then yes.

Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:02 pm
by Troy
Vince wrote: If I tell someone to jump off a bridge and they're mentally ill and they do it, am I responsible?
If you suggest the specific bridge, remind the person where it is, and then egg them on until they do it, play-by-play, yes.

She did that.

Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:25 pm
by Leisher
Troy wrote: She did that.
Exactly.

This wasn't someone texting "kill yourself" and then walking away. This is someone texting hundreds of times instructions and reasons why it's a good idea.

And AGAIN, do you think Manson should be set free, because he didn't actually do anything?

Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:00 am
by Malcolm
Vince wrote: If I tell someone to jump off a bridge and they're mentally ill and they do it, am I responsible?
If you're well aware of it and that their mental illness specifically has to do with thoughts of suicide, then yes, there's a significant chance you're contributing to the demise of someone. This wasn't just her trying to be bitchy, either. She had a thousand times to intervene in such a way that he'd be alive. Had she done nothing and not responded in the first place, there's a very good chance he's still alive.

Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:44 am
by Vince
I have no sympathy for this woman. Just always concern for how the system could abuse this. I have no fear that I could be swayed to kill myself by someone like this. I have more fear that the government could hold me liable for someone else doing something crazy. How much closer to "hateful rhetoric" being criminalized did this put us? Maybe not at all. Maybe a lot. Time will tell.

Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:35 am
by Leisher
Vince wrote: Just always concern for how the system could abuse this. I have no fear that I could be swayed to kill myself by someone like this. I have more fear that the government could hold me liable for someone else doing something crazy. How much closer to "hateful rhetoric" being criminalized did this put us? Maybe not at all. Maybe a lot. Time will tell.
Troy, if you're reading and going back to our gun conversation, this mentality is why the NRA defends armor piercing bullets and whatnot. And Vince, I'm not saying it's wrong. It's the whole "Give an inch and they'll take a mile" argument.

Anyway, onto your statement I get your concern, I really do. Although, I will point out that since Manson was locked up for life for talking to people, has the government expanded upon that and abused it? Doesn't appear so. The only case I can think of was the sicko writing pedo porn and how it was investigated and debated about locking him up for writing such things.

Back to the bitch, is it truly ok to let her off because you're afraid of "what might happen". Does the young man not deserve any justice? Do you really want to stand on the "fuck him, this is about me" hill?

As always, I will scream to whomever is listening, and it appears nobody is, that the correct answer typically isn't one extreme or the other, but rather in the middle.

Don't encourage suicide

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:39 am
by GORDON
Yeah but you can't declare that she kinda committed a crime so saying the truth is somewhere in the middle is...

And this repeated comparison to Manson... I don't think it applies. Jim Jones didn't force it down anyone's throat either, yet no one would claim he wasn't a cult leader. Are you saying this chick was the leader of a 1-person cult?

I don't like the slippery-slope possibilities, and yeah, peeps say HA INVALID LOGIC YOUR ARGUMENT IS MEANINGLESS, but that doesn't mean one piece of shit never gets stacked on another piece of shit. I've never liked the "you pressed the keyboard keys in an illegal order now you're going to jail" laws.