Welcome to Thunderdome

Ireland about to ban single use plastics.

Still no word from the countries' primarily responsible for the problem.

Global Climate Strike going on today.

I hate to tell them, but nobody cares. This is all just show, and nothing will be done.

Leisher wrote: Global Climate Strike going on today.

I hate to tell them, but nobody cares. This is all just show, and nothing will be done.

Also, all the demands of the organizers are dealing with reperations and all sorts of SJW shit that has nothing to do with the climate.

If you're a true believer in man made global warming and that there's really something that can be done about it, you need to take your movement back because it's turning into a simple global socialism racket.

Vince wrote: Also, all the demands of the organizers are dealing with reperations and all sorts of SJW shit that has nothing to do with the climate.

That's part of the problem. Either the world is truly in great danger and we all must do something NOW. Or this is just a bunch of bullshit.

You cannot put reparations at the same level as the end of the world and then expect to be taken seriously.

Leisher wrote: That's part of the problem. Either the world is truly in great danger and we all must do something NOW. Or this is just a bunch of bullshit.

Someone on Twitter made a pretty good argument that this has become a cult. When their previous predictions do not come true, they go back and rewrite their doctrine in a way that the failure of prophecy is actually further evidence of their cause. They don't allow for interactions with contradicting views ("we won't give 'deniers' a platform"). All of their remedies involve their empowerment. All of their remedies will require the sacrifice of others, while their lifestyle either remains the same or improves.

Please understand, I'm firmly in the "We should probably be doing something now" camp. I just have zero hope anyone actually will. The people in charge now, and the people who will be in charge in the future, will always want to get paid. "Who cares what happens after I'm dead" is probably a pretty common theme. Although honestly, the more probable theme is "Let them take the profit loses to fix the issue, and we'll become the #1 corporation on Earth."

I have no doubt of your intentions in all this. The pro warming crowd has a LOT of past sins to overcome before I will take them at their word on anything.

Crap like this doesn't help.

Penn State climate scientist, Michael ‘hockey stick’ Mann commits contempt of court in the ‘climate science trial of the century.’ Prominent alarmist shockingly defies judge and refuses to surrender data for open court examination. Only possible outcome: Mann’s humiliation, defeat and likely criminal investigation in the U.S.

Active volcano discovered beneath Antarctic ice sheet could be contributing to rapidly melting glacier.

Major Greenland Glacier Is Growing. Not for nothing, I think it's worth pointing out that this came out about the same time as the picture of the dog sledder going over the melting ice.

The ice at both poles is a constant debate. Rapid melting is absolutely happening, but so is record ice growth.

Coke and Pepsi leave a plastic lobbying group.

The group wants to prevent any plastic bans, while Coke and Pepsi don't need that bad PR, and want to start using more recycled plastics.

Leisher wrote: The ice at both poles is a constant debate. Rapid melting is absolutely happening, but so is record ice growth.

Does the "record ice growth" part seem to be missing from the discussion most of the time?

The more I learn about our observations of the planet in general, the more I think a lot of our perceived problems are our ability to observe things we haven't seen before. I know the freak-out crowd is talking about how we're having more tornadoes than ever, when the truth is that we're able to pick them up with monitoring equipment where we weren't before. That's why the serious meteorologists only count the tornadoes over a certain strength. If a tornado under a certain f-scale measurement hits, you can't be sure without visual confirmation that it was a tornado by just looking at the damage. We are able to see them now on radar, so we're seeing smaller tornadoes out in the middle of nowhere that were never counted before.

Vince wrote: The more I learn about our observations of the planet in general, the more I think a lot of our perceived problems are our ability to observe things we haven't seen before.

There is absolutely truth in this statement.

That being said, we're definitely fucking up the oceans and really should be making an effort to correct that.

End of the day, would you rather live in a polluted world or a clean one?

Leisher wrote: End of the day, would you rather live in a polluted world or a clean one?

That's really not the question, though. No one wants to live in a polluted world. The question becomes, "what are you willing to give up to live in a pollution free world?"

Vince wrote:

Leisher wrote: End of the day, would you rather live in a polluted world or a clean one?

That's really not the question, though. No one wants to live in a polluted world. The question becomes, "what are you willing to give up to live in a pollution free world?"

I was asking a polite question. Whether you believe in climate change or not, we're killing the oceans and everything in it. If that happens, rising temps or not, we're all fucked.

I'd happily give up a lot to live in a pollution free world. Of course there are things we cannot give up, like airplanes, but there's a lot we can to make it so the airplanes aren't a big deal.

Leisher wrote:Whether you believe in climate change or not, we're killing the oceans and everything in it. If that happens, rising temps or not, we're all fucked.

Really not trying to be a dick about it, but again... they have a high hurdle to cross to get me on board with the whole "the oceans are dying" thing. In my lifetime, my observation has been that once one grift has played out (as global climate is doing now), then they need to move on to the next one. Started with global population, then the upcoming ice-age, then the depletion of the ozone, then global warming, and now the death of oceans. I'll have to pay more attention to this new crisis, but I'm not too freaked out at this point.

I would like to follow up on the claims that we're killing the oceans and everything in it though, if you can give me anything more precise.

Plastic is now in every level of the ocean food chain, and uninhabited Pacific islands 1000 miles from any city have beaches covered in plastic, and whales are found dead with stomachs full of plastic bags........... But to be honest, I don't know how that affects human civilization. Sucks if like to eat fish or spend time in nature or like big sea critters, but not sure if it's catastrophic.

That goes back to the question of, is it worth going to war with China and India over. Because we're going to make zero difference on that front.

Vince wrote: I'll have to pay more attention to this new crisis, but I'm not too freaked out at this point.

Nobody here is an idiot. We know this "crisis" isn't new, but it has been getting more press lately. Why? I don't know, I'm certain someone is making a buck on it. However, I'm glad it's getting press because it's something we can visibly see both the damage, and what our help would do to it. Since humans are visual creatures, that's important.

One big issue is that we're over fishing the fuck out of everything. Hell, watch The Deadliest Catch and you'll see the effects in action as their fishing grounds have dried up over the years.

It's honestly simple math and science. All living things are dependent upon one another. When you harvest millions of pounds of a species (or multiple species) each day, week, month, or year it's unsustainable unless the remaining ones are multiplying faster than you're removing them. So when you fish or hunt something to extinction, not only have you just removed something off your menu, but you negatively affected nature in some way.

For example: Removing predators of Sea Urchins results in "urchin barrens". Removing predators near the Great Barrier Reef has resulted in the population of starfish skyrocketing and damaging the reef.

Vince wrote: I would like to follow up on the claims that we're killing the oceans and everything in it though, if you can give me anything more precise.

That's a tough ask because you're pretty critical of most outlets. It's a good quality to have, particularly in this day and age of the MSM hyping and inventing stories. Is there an outlet you would accept as a good source? If so, I'll see what I can do about finding a story or two from there on this subject.

You can do an experiment at home to see the reality though. Go get an aquarium. Follow all instructions and buy a perfect blend of fish and plants that will help to maintain the tank. You'll get a nice balance of different species living together and each contributing to the overall health of the tank.

Now remove the plecostomus. Make note of what happens to the health of the tank and the other fish.

OR add a bunch more of one species to the point of overpopulation and see what happens.

OR paint your room without turning off their filter and watch their skin strip off.

Or just think about how quickly the fish in your tank would need to reproduce if they were your only source of food.

Etc.

You might think an aquarium doesn't equal the entire planet, but it does, just at a much lesser scale. Thus, things happen quicker.

I think we all can agree that if we continue to over fish and wipe out the salmon, tuna, groupers, sea bass, whales,lobsters, crabs, etc. that means that other fish, animals, and plants that depend on them will also suffer. I know fisheries are a thing, but they have their own negatives that come with them in relation to the ocean.

Notice I haven't even yet talked about the effects of plastic and other pollution. Those are completely separate issues, but all are doing their part in fucking the oceans up.

I agree with you that the climate change issue has definitely suffered from a lot of bad science, bad takes, bad politics, and so on, causing skeptics to have some legitimate questions. I would ask you to buy into the oceans being in trouble.

Sea levels may rise faster than expected by 2100. But Vince will be dead by then, so fuck those people.