Welcome to Thunderdome

I don't mind allowing them in as needed. But I liken it to having indoor plumbing. It's a net plus to have water coming into the house. Until a pipe bursts and you can no longer control the flow of water into your house.

Our pipes are bursting.

For every immigrant that does come, total amount of crime increases, their carbon footprint on the environment increases, and more people are clogging the roads.

I'm generally of the mindset of, "We're full, stay home." And I can never seem to stop thinking about the local schoolteacher's family wiped out by an illegal immigrant drunk driver, a few years ago.

GORDON wrote: total amount of crime increases,

Naturalized citizens commit crimes at a much lower rate than natives.

GORDON wrote: their carbon footprint on the environment increases

But there's no global warming? Or is there, but you cannot personally do anything about it?

GORDON wrote: "We're full, stay home."

But... you live in the midwest? It's like the big empty over there.

GORDON wrote: And I can never seem to stop thinking about the local schoolteacher's family wiped out by an illegal immigrant drunk driver, a few years ago.

Not proposing letting in anyone illegally.

I'm not talking about crime rates, I'm talking about total crime increase. That schoolteacher's family wasn't going to get wiped out by SOMEONE, it just happened to be an illegal. She and her family are dead wholly because that man wasn't stopped at the border.

The midwest doesn't feel big empty during my daily 70 miles commute through the city. And I was recently told by a patrol officer that a significant percentage of traffic violations they pull over are undocumented, and have no insurance. Both crimes, but they can only cite for not having insurance.... and let them go their merry way.


We're full. Stay home.

GORDON wrote: I'm not talking about crime rates, I'm talking about total crime increase.

Oh.... kay....

GORDON wrote: We're full. Stay home.

We're far from full. I want more immigrants, but none of the illegal ones.

TheCatt wrote:

GORDON wrote: I'm not talking about crime rates, I'm talking about total crime increase.

Oh.... kay....

I simply don't care if 9 illegal immigrants come over and are super nice and pay their taxes on their slave labor wages. The 1 illegal that rapes and murders is enough to sway my opinion about open borders. My tolerance level is "one (insert violent crime here) is too many," when it comes to this. I know others have a higher threshold, but not me.

GORDON wrote:

TheCatt wrote:

GORDON wrote: I'm not talking about crime rates, I'm talking about total crime increase.

Oh.... kay....

I simply don't care if 9 illegal immigrants come over and are super nice and pay their taxes on their slave labor wages. The 1 illegal that rapes and murders is enough to sway my opinion about open borders. My tolerance level is "one (insert violent crime here) is too many," when it comes to this. I know others have a higher threshold, but not me.

Technically, if there were open borders, they wouldn't be illegals. Maybe they'd behave differently?

Open borders are open borders. I like to think our current borders are making an effort to weed out felons and criminals and shit, to a degree. But every single one who is here without that process is a criminal.

I don't think we're actually arguing, in spite of your efforts. I've been saying "illegal" every time, I think.

GORDON wrote: Open borders are open borders. I like to think our current borders are making an effort to weed out felons and criminals and shit, to a degree. But every single one who is here without that process is a criminal.

No. There's unenforced borders, which allows illegals to come in to the country, but without status, so they have to live/work underground, etc. Then there's legal open borders where people can come in and work, live out in the open, etc (get drivers licenses, insurance, etc)

TheCatt wrote: Technically, if there were open borders, they wouldn't be illegals. Maybe they'd behave differently?

I've always said if felons weren't stigmatized by having to stay in prison, they might act better.

GORDON wrote:That schoolteacher's family wasn't going to get wiped out by SOMEONE, it just happened to be an illegal. She and her family are dead wholly because that man wasn't stopped at the border.

Or, because that person sold/loaned him the car.
Or, because the bar served him too much.

I would bet there's a pretty long list of points where had something different happened, he wouldn't have taken that family out. I seriously doubt he crossed the boarder and bee lined directly to her family and took them out. Thus, the boarder crossing being the only point where this tragedy could have been prevented.

GORDON wrote:I'm talking about total crime increase.

But the total of non-crime committing citizens goes up faster, so, a net positive affect. Shouldn't the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?
Hell, by your argument, people shouldn't be able to reproduce any more because one of them WILL produce a criminal, thus increasing crime.

TheCatt wrote: For the immigrants who do come, they send more money back to those poorer countries than the US international aid budget combined. Ie. Helping "them there"

Fair point, but you're still removing the best and brightest from those countries. Yay, they're getting handouts, but how's that improving their overall country? Mexico is exhibit A of immigrants sending money back, and that shit clearly is not working.

Oh, and the U.S.'s international aid budget is clearly ineffective.

TheCatt wrote: For the people who do come, their incomes grow 4 to 16x of what they were making in their own country.

People do better in the U.S. than their third world country. Duh.

TheCatt wrote: For those who do come, our tax base increases, our ability to keep Social Security funded increases, and our own domestic wealth increases. Immigration helps keep our deficits from being even worse than they already are. Studies have shown any immigrant with at least a high school education is a net positive to the American economy, and the younger they are, the better.

Immigration, at low numbers, is obviously a win for the U.S. However, now do your numbers with "everyone" and see what you come up with. If the entire world came to the U.S. to live, would we all enjoy the American Dream in a utopia or would there be all kinds of problems? The answer is obvious.

My point isn't anti-immigration, but there has to be limits to it.

TheCatt wrote: Naturalized citizens commit crimes at a much lower rate than natives.

That makes sense logically. The people seeking out a better life are less likely to commit a crime. However, the crime rate for illegals is pretty high.

TheCatt wrote: Technically, if there were open borders, they wouldn't be illegals. Maybe they'd behave differently?

Ha!

Leisher wrote: However, the crime rate for illegals is pretty high.

Same as native born.

TheCatt wrote:

Leisher wrote: However, the crime rate for illegals is pretty high.

Same as native born.

That is very, very incorrect. Think about it...

Leisher wrote:

TheCatt wrote:

Leisher wrote: However, the crime rate for illegals is pretty high.

Same as native born.

That is very, very incorrect. Think about it...

Aside from that crime... the same.

Cakedaddy wrote: Hell, by your argument, people shouldn't be able to reproduce any more because one of them WILL produce a criminal, thus increasing crime.

Right?

Leisher wrote: However, now do your numbers with "everyone" and see what you come up with.

Most economists estimate GDP growth of 50 to 150% for the US, based on the limited # of people who could actually make it to the US.

TheCatt wrote:

Cakedaddy wrote: Hell, by your argument, people shouldn't be able to reproduce any more because one of them WILL produce a criminal, thus increasing crime.

Right?

No right, that isn't it at.all. citizens have rights guaranteed by the Constitution. I argue that illegals do not. Or shouldn't.

That teacher would be alive today if not for lax borders. Barring other misadventure, this cannot be disputed.

"Yeah but Gordon how do you know she and her family are not better off dead?". Yeah, maybe she was just lucky.

I've said it at least ten times... People have an internal number of murders, rapes, and molested children they'll tolerate, before they want something done about illegal immigrants. Some of those tolerances are higher than others.

There are countless If "A" then "B" would not have occurred that led to that incident. Your argument ignores too many variables.

If "Something be done" is based on murders, rapes, and molested children, then why does Compton exist? Why do gangs exist anywhere? Why are there bad guys anywhere? Thresholds haven't been met yet?

Are you suggesting Compton is full of illegal immigrants, or starting a new discussion?

I.dont care about all the variables that led to the teacher and illegal being at the same intersection. The only thing that matters is the end result. They're dead because he was in the country illegally.