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Posted: **Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:36 pm**

The way I see it if we are indeed fucked, there is one thing that might save us: good old rampant capitalism-driven technological advancement. Given a free reign, we've gotten very good at ramping up technology quickly. There just might be a magic bullet, but the only way to find it is for government and everyone else too busy wringing their hands to get the hell out of the way and let technology leap forward unhindered. If you really believe we are in severe danger and that it's too late to stop it, then the one thing you could do to ensure the death of humanity would be to try to strangle innovation. Which is what most of the idiots who believe just that are most eager to do.

I swear they won't be happy until 90% of us are dead and the other 10% live in caves.

I get your point that talking about all this is pointless, GORDON, and I somewhat agree with that conclusion. But I disagree with your premise that "we are fucked" is inevitable. Humanity is very good at finding brilliant solutions to impossible problems when left alone and allowed to get shit done.

Posted: **Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:03 pm**

Malcolm wrote:What's the point of you asking what'll happen if every simulation your run in your brain ends with "we're fucked?"

The point is exactly that. The people who are suffixing everything with "because of man made global warming" are also the ones telling us that we are already past the point of no return, anyway, SO WHAT IS THE POINT OF STILL BEING A DICK ABOUT IT. Not saying you're being a dick about it, I am saying they are, for apparently no good reason because they say we are already fucked but they keep telling us how the world would be a better place if we banned cows or lightbulbs or something.

Posted: **Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:12 pm**

TPRJones wrote:I get your point that talking about all this is pointless, GORDON, and I somewhat agree with that conclusion. But I disagree with your premise that "we are fucked" is inevitable. Humanity is very good at finding brilliant solutions to impossible problems when left alone and allowed to get shit done.

There are different degrees of "we are fucked." Never meant to imply that humanity would die off, just meant that the world as we know it would end when the glaciers rolled over the US/Canadian border in spite of the TSA demanding that they halt and show their papers. We actually could use a good die-off of some people.... the sorts who wont move out of the desert during a 20 year drought, or wont get the fuck out of their country when their neighbors start eating people of the other tribe, or when you have 3 days notice that there is a hurricane headed toward your city that sits below sea level and you still need the government to tell you to tread water when the water is over your head.

But me? I'll be fine. And given the choice between killing an inbred Kentucky moonshiner and a formerly-hybrid-driving Obama voter for food that my family needs to survive, the democrat is a dead man, for reasons that not the least of which because the redneck has a gun and the hippy doesn't.

All I'm saying.

No it's not, that just sounded dramatic. I'm just saying there is either a point to worrying about man-made climate change, or we are already past the point of no return and the shit doesn't matter any more and they should stop legislating shit on the poor and middle class that does not affect the "rich" at all, and being environmentally smug in public ought to be a free and legal punch in the nose.

Posted: **Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:18 pm**

I'm on the same page overall.

Never meant to imply that humanity would die off, just meant that the world as we know it would end when the glaciers rolled over the US/Canadian border in spite of the TSA demanding that they halt and show their papers.

Well, hell, the world as our parents knew it ended when the internet took off. The world as our grandparents knew it ended when the atom bomb was invented. The world as our great-grandparents knew it ended when electricity and automobile usage became widespread. The rate at which the world as we knew it has been ending has been increasing quite a bit.

Whatever happens, humanity will adapt and overall continue to thrive. I'm very optimistic on that point. Which is the only issue on which you and I might differ.

Edited By TPRJones on 1403551427

Posted: **Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:24 pm**

I'm not talking social changes, I am saying that it wont take much to make large swaths of US land lawless and belonging to the Mad Max biker gangs. People are already pissed and one half of the population loathes the other (see: Croatia, 1993). Now tell them that their home is going to be gone in 3 months, and all local government is shutting down, and get ahead of it now or you're on your own. Not everyone will leave. And when the Authorities pull out, the monsters will roll in. Every mile lost is a little less power the central government will have....

I'm just in fantasy land now. "life as we know it" for real, not "wow I lost my job at the buggy whip shop."

Posted: **Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:33 pm**

People are already pissed and one half of the population loathes the other (see: Croatia, 1993)...

Uh, the bullshit the lefties and righties have built up in this country over maybe a couple centuries pales in comparison to most others in the world simply because we haven't been around long enough, Croatia included. Hate's been going on far, far longer there.

I am saying that it wont take much to make large swaths of US land lawless and belonging to the Mad Max biker gangs.

Yes, it would. It would take something fucking HUGE. Even then, you'll have the Felucca lands. When they get too dangerous, people will find themselves with more of these.

Posted: **Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:34 pm**

Megacities can't exist without massive swaths of farmland.

Posted: **Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:38 pm**

GORDON wrote:Megacities can't exist without massive swaths of farmland.

Which the gov't and companies will hold onto like grim death.

Posted: **Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:45 pm**

Bah. In the face of real immediate threat, time and again history has shown us that the majority of people come together and help each other. There are some that buck this trend, and at the worst of times those people get strung up from a tree by the neck.

An overnight massive catastrophe could lead to what you predict, sure. In the face of the immediate and overwhelming danger to family it's every family for itself. But something stretching over years as you have described, I expect people to pull each other out of the snow more often than not.

There will be some conflict, but mostly it will be from people in the tropical latitudes trying to push back the tide of refugees. And it won't last long.

That's all presuming no "magic bullet" is found, though.

Posted: **Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:13 pm**

TPRJones wrote:Bah. In the face of real immediate threat, time and again history has shown us that the majority of people come together and help each other. There are some that buck this trend, and at the worst of times those people get strung up from a tree by the neck.

In America of the past, I agree. In other parts of the world where neighbors are divided by ideology, shit leads to bloodshed and mass graves. The last 20ish years in this country have redefined what it means to be American, in my opinion, from a melting pot where people were expected, to some extent, conform, to a massive free-for-all of nonconformity, selfishness, and complete lack of what it means to belong to a community. "Not my president" with Bush. "Unmmm, is this guy even an American citizen/NONE OF YOUR CONCERN RACIST AND IT ISN'T OUR JOB TO PROVE IT" with Obama.

I know which of my neighbors had "Obama 2012" signs in their front yard. I would not go out of my way to help those people in case of a disaster. Well, that isn't true. I'm a soft touch. But if it was a grasshopper/ant situation, then they could starve over the winter while I take in their children and female relatives, if they are attractive.

See? People suck. I'd have never said something like that 20 years ago when I felt like being an American still meant something special.

Posted: **Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:31 pm**

In America of the past, I agree. In other parts of the world where neighbors are divided by ideology, shit leads to bloodshed and mass graves.

You're suggesting we've somehow lost our (inherent?) "special-ness" due to the past 2 decades?

"Not my president" with Bush.

I remember seeing Reagan shirts with that. Additionally, there is no political election in recent history that was anywhere near as brutal compared to what we had in the 17th century, particularly the early part.

Edited By Malcolm on 1403555563

Posted: **Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:39 pm**

In America of the past, I agree. In other parts of the world where neighbors are divided by ideology, shit leads to bloodshed and mass graves.

Again you make a false distinction. That's true sometimes here, too. The civil war made such divisions. So does race or gang affiliation in some more violent inner city neighborhoods. Also of course the legendary Hatfields and McCoys. It's not uncommon. I still hold that this is not the majority response in times of non-immediately-catastrophic turmoil.

I would not go out of my way to help those people in case of a disaster. Well, that isn't true. I'm a soft touch.

And I say this is far more common among your fellow men than you would believe. Many people will have that "fuck them" thought, but almost all will think better of it and do the right thing if they can.

Why do you think so poorly of everyone else, when your primary example in your own head - and probably the examples of most of the people around you - are so much more positive than that?

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:03 am**

GORDON wrote:See? People suck. I'd have never said something like that 20 years ago when I felt like being an American still meant something special.

I think it's been a gradual coming on for the last 50 years. As the federal government took on more and more responsibility to "take care" of people, more and more people have come to view that as the role of government and not theirs. And more and more people have come to expect others to take care of them and feel like they are owed other people giving them stuff.

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:31 am**

Vince wrote:
GORDON wrote:See? People suck. I'd have never said something like that 20 years ago when I felt like being an American still meant something special.
I think it's been a gradual coming on for the last 50 years. As the federal government took on more and more responsibility to "take care" of people, more and more people have come to view that as the role of government and not theirs. And more and more people have come to expect others to take care of them and feel like they are owed other people giving them stuff.

I think people will generally help out as we've seen numerous times in videos that capture real events.

However, I also agree with this point.

Surely feeding on the government tit has weakened the sense of community for many in this country. Hard to take pride in one's job and community when your goal is to not be employed so the government will keep sending you free money. Or have as many kids as possible, even if you don't want them, just so the checks get bigger.

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:25 am**

There's a big distinction to be made between local and national community/government though. There are probably many people on welfare that don't give a crap about the nation but are active members in their local community about which they care a lot. These people will happily help their local community, but may or may not help outsiders.

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:54 am**

Agreed, there are a lot, but I'd argue that there's more who don't/wouldn't help than in the past.

I do want to note that I do believe generally people are good, but I also believe there are evil people.

Posted: **Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:00 pm**

I think when push comes to shove a lot of formerly "good" people are going to be shifting their priorities a bit.

Posted: **Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:45 am**

I think in large metro areas in a large scale failure of some sort, the people willing to help the community will be bashed against the rocks by the ocean of people out to "get theirs". Look at NOLA during Katrina. That was WITH a lot of assistance coming in within a week. Imagine no one is coming and you have to do it yourselves. I know I'm headng out of town ASAP if something of that nature happened.

Posted: **Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:46 am**

Look at NOLA during Katrina.

Yes, there were countless examples of people helping each other during Katrina. Good example.

Posted: **Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:18 am**

TPRJones wrote:
Look at NOLA during Katrina.
Yes, there were countless examples of people helping each other during Katrina. Good example.

Also countless examples of people doing quite the opposite.

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