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I kind of see "dog got eaten by coyotes" as sort of the cost of living where there are coyotes.... and if coyotes have moved in, a quick check to see why should make the decision. Usually it's "a subdivision just got built in that valley where all the coyotes lived," as I understand it.

Some of my neighbors have dogs, so I keep my chickens in a dog-proof run. I don't expect my neighbors to get rid of their dogs for my hobby. It's illegal for them to let their dogs run free, but I am not going to gamble my flock on their giving a shit about the leash law. Nor would I expect a coyote to stop being a coyote at the boundary of my yard.

GORDON wrote: I kind of see "dog got eaten by coyotes" as sort of the cost of living where there are coyotes.... and if coyotes have moved in, a quick check to see why should make the decision. Usually it's "a subdivision just got built in that valley where all the coyotes lived," as I understand it.

Some of my neighbors have dogs, so I keep my chickens in a dog-proof run. I don't expect my neighbors to get rid of their dogs for my hobby. It's illegal for them to let their dogs run free, but I am not going to gamble my flock on their giving a shit about the leash law. Nor would I expect a coyote to stop being a coyote at the boundary of my yard.

Actually, Chicago has them. I think they're going to flourish where they aren't being shot or trapped.

And fwiw, coyotes kill any other canines they can in their territory because they don't want competition for their food (mice and rabbits and other small critters). When they kill Fifi, it isn't directly for food. You can go out after a snow and see where fox have gone and peed and a coyote will come along behind him and pee higher up on the tree than the fox did. Warning that "I'm bigger than you and I will kill you if I see you". And he will if he gets the chance.

Vince wrote:

GORDON wrote: I kind of see "dog got eaten by coyotes" as sort of the cost of living where there are coyotes.... and if coyotes have moved in, a quick check to see why should make the decision. Usually it's "a subdivision just got built in that valley where all the coyotes lived," as I understand it.

Some of my neighbors have dogs, so I keep my chickens in a dog-proof run. I don't expect my neighbors to get rid of their dogs for my hobby. It's illegal for them to let their dogs run free, but I am not going to gamble my flock on their giving a shit about the leash law. Nor would I expect a coyote to stop being a coyote at the boundary of my yard.

Actually, Chicago has them. I think they're going to flourish where they aren't being shot or trapped.

Did they live in Chicago before it became a huge, sprawling city?

Vince wrote:
And fwiw, coyotes kill any other canines they can in their territory because they don't want competition for their

So domesticate a coyote and feed him well and he'll be the biggest fucking coyote in the area.

Domestication would make him soft. He'd totally get ripped apart.

GORDON wrote:Did they live in Chicago before it became a huge, sprawling city?

Not to my knowledge. I suspect it gets complicated. These particular coyotes do not have as heightened flight response as others. They came into the city because of an abundance of food (mice and rats from city refuse). There is a theory that this was actually how dogs became domesticated. Coyotes and wolves doing this. Flight response is a genetic trait. Those with a lesser flight response gravitated closer to the city (town) and bred with other canines with a weak flight response until they weren't afraid of people at all.

If this is accurate, then I suspect within a few years these coyotes will start breeding with domesticated dogs and they will soon have a very big stray dog problem in the city.

You'd think with the abundance of guns in Chicago...

Wolfen!

GORDON wrote: You'd think with the abundance of guns in Chicago...

Wolfen!

As soon as they start slingin'... BLAM!

Speaking of things that shouldn't be posted on facebook... I have been thinking of a thing to post on facebook. I am still formulating the thought. Something about how in the old days, there were people in the politics business, and then the rest of us. They would do whatever they had to to get elected, and we would listen and maybe share an opinion or two that night at the bar after work, or at the water cooler during the break, or whatever. We were mostly passive participants in politics, aside from those people running the protests and telling us what to think.

Enter social media.

Suddenly we are all in the "get our guy elected" game. We can tell our friends and family 8 times a day how much we abhor their belief systems, even while we are taking 5 minutes on the toilet. "Sorry not sorry" became a popular phrase. People hate each other now, and crazy builds on crazy. Someone reports something that is 90% true, the other side decries it as "alternate facts," the original side points at the detractors and calls it "fake news." There is literally no way to know what is going on any more, but that doesn't stop us from telling our friends and family how they are hitlers for not believing news source #4, and why are you so racist?

So do we thank facebook for opening up the world to the free flow of information, or damn them for making us realize people we used to like are actually really nasty people, at heart?

Something like that.

Then one of you is going to say OH IT WAS MUCH WORSE IN THE PAST, which does nothing to invalidate my point, but you'll say it anyway like it does.

As far as ways for the average person to annoy another average person, it's never been easier.

So do we thank facebook for opening up the world to the free flow of information, or damn them for making us realize people we used to like are actually really nasty people, at heart?

Facebook didn't open up shit. You had to realize people were mostly douches back even prior to UO days.

Malcolm wrote: As far as ways for the average person to annoy another average person, it's never been easier.

So do we thank facebook for opening up the world to the free flow of information, or damn them for making us realize people we used to like are actually really nasty people, at heart?

Facebook didn't open up shit. You had to realize people were mostly douches back even prior to UO days.

If you knew them in UO and also real life, you were in their gang against strangers. Now all over the country people are suddenly not welcome at christmas dinner and people are getting divorced.

GORDON wrote:

Malcolm wrote: As far as ways for the average person to annoy another average person, it's never been easier.

So do we thank facebook for opening up the world to the free flow of information, or damn them for making us realize people we used to like are actually really nasty people, at heart?

Facebook didn't open up shit. You had to realize people were mostly douches back even prior to UO days.

If you knew them in UO and also real life, you were in their gang against strangers. Now all over the country people are suddenly not welcome at christmas dinner and people are getting divorced.

Wait. Your major complaint is that people who only got along by bottling up their inner asshole suddenly have an outlet and now ... aren't? Sorry you were running with folks who haven't gotten past the mentality of a 7-year old. I know Drumpf voters. I give them shit when I go drinking with them, but at least I still go drinking with them.

Yes. I am saying manners existed for a reason.

GORDON wrote: Yes. I am saying manners existed for a reason.

This.

Social media simply ends civility. A simple statement will be read by different people in different ways. That causes tension.

I've known Gordon for decades now and if I type here: "You asshole". He's going to know it's not a judgment or out of malice. He's also mature enough and technologically savvy enough to understand things can be misinterpreted on the web. If he questions something, he'll privately IM me to see how I meant a statement. That's how conversations needed to evolve into the social media age.

Uncle Jethro doesn't understand this at all. He barelyt uNdestands howto typ on this thing!!!! So let's say he posts a joke that happens to include a group you're a member of and you happen to be his nephew. You laugh, take NO offense, and jokingly type back "You asshole". Even if you had "haha", now Uncle Jethro is LIVID. He was just kidding and thought you had a sense of humor. Now here you've called him an asshole in front of his friends, family, and co-workers! Queue the escalation!

It's almost like we need to invent new visual cues as a society to give intent to written statements. *cough*emojis*cough* The loss of face to face communications and inflection has been a disaster to friendships and families.

Social media simply ends civility.
...
Uncle Jethro doesn't understand this at all. He barelyt uNdestands howto typ on this thing!!!! So let's say he posts a joke that happens to include a group you're a member of and you happen to be his nephew. You laugh, take NO offense, and jokingly type back "You asshole". Even if you had "haha", now Uncle Jethro is LIVID. He was just kidding and thought you had a sense of humor. Now here you've called him an asshole in front of his friends, family, and co-workers! Queue the escalation!

That doesn't sound like social media's ending anything. It sounds like Uncle Jethro is a dumb-ass, understands zero about how the internet or its culture works, and jumped to a conclusion. It also kind of sounds like his nephew's an idiot for typing, "you asshole" in a largely semi-public virtual environment and for forgetting his uncle is a thin-skinned dumb-ass.

Malcolm wrote:

Social media simply ends civility.
...
Uncle Jethro doesn't understand this at all. He barelyt uNdestands howto typ on this thing!!!! So let's say he posts a joke that happens to include a group you're a member of and you happen to be his nephew. You laugh, take NO offense, and jokingly type back "You asshole". Even if you had "haha", now Uncle Jethro is LIVID. He was just kidding and thought you had a sense of humor. Now here you've called him an asshole in front of his friends, family, and co-workers! Queue the escalation!

That doesn't sound like social media's ending anything. It sounds like Uncle Jethro is a dumb-ass, understands zero about how the internet or its culture works, and jumped to a conclusion. It also kind of sounds like his nephew's an idiot for typing, "you asshole" in a largely semi-public virtual environment and for forgetting his uncle is a thin-skinned dumb-ass.

You can argue about a hastily conceived example, but you'd be insane to try and argue that social media hasn't had an effect on human interaction.

Social media is just another tool, like pliers are a tool or a car is a tool. It's not the pliers' fault if you use it when you should have used a socket wrench. It's not the car's fault when you plow into someone else because you don't know how to drive properly. And it's not social media's fault if you use it when you should have talked to someone directly instead of in public.

Uncle Jethro and his nephew are the problem, not the tool they are using.

You can argue about a hastily conceived example, but you'd be insane to try and argue that social media hasn't had an effect on human interaction.

If you're defining "manners" as "silently hating on someone but never having the spine to admit it to their face" then at best social media just gives you more opportunities to crack the paper-thin facade that holds your troubled circle of acquaintances and relatives in imaginary harmony.

Malcolm wrote:

You can argue about a hastily conceived example, but you'd be insane to try and argue that social media hasn't had an effect on human interaction.

If you're defining "manners" as "silently hating on someone but never having the spine to admit it to their face" then at best social media just gives you more opportunities to crack the paper-thin facade that holds your troubled circle of acquaintances and relatives in imaginary harmony.

I submit that silent hatred versus open hatred is what has kept western civilization afloat for all these centuries.