I'm not on the jury and this is just a message board so we don't really have to worry about due process because we have no affect on it. People were discussing the situation and and I gave my two cents on what I thought happened. You have fallen back on the laughable defense "innocent until proven guilt" on a message board(My guess would be because it is your team in trouble, how quick were you to jump on usc?). Yeah he will get his day in court but gun to my kids head I need to guess at who is guilty I'm saying the A.D. knew more and covered up. Gun to your kids head I am guessing you would say the same. Even if they are your team you can't be that naive or gullible to truly believe he had no knowledge what so ever.
All were are doing is speculating and I was giving you my reasons for why I was leaning in a certain direction. Too many unlikely situations would have had to take place for him to be totally innocent. Since none of us are sitting on the jury it really doesn't matter.
Forget innocent until proven guilty because all this is is a bunch of guys discussing a bunch of other guys who run around with a ball. Given the speculative reports of 28 football players trading stuff for benefits, a star QB having several different cars all beyond his means, having Clarett take thousands of dollars in benefits(former osu athletic director words), Heisman winning QB took money, another article claiming Holmes took money, and the coach now has a history of top players at both of his schools getting benefits whether he was active in it or not. How intense and complete do you really think the A.D.s internal investigation that found no other wrong doing was? What is your gut feeling? He is still innocent until proven guilty no matter what yours or my gut feeling is.
usc and osu did the same thing. They had players breaking the rules and they covered it up. Right now bush probably got as much money himself as everyone at osu but this happens everywhere. It is the cover up that is the issue IMO. They both saw shit going on and did nothing about it.
Miami.
NFL
I had a longer post typed up which addressed your post line by line again, but to be honest, I deleted the entire thing because I'm tired of discussing this subject. However, I don't feel you deserve the oft used "Bah", so this is my "summary until we hear what the punishment will be" post.
I think we agree more than you realize, but I'm not willing to publicly execute someone until all the facts come out. You seem to be more willing to do so, although as I said, I doubt you'd be as willing if this was happening to Miami.
Also, I get the hate from a Miami fan because of '02, but you'd think there would be a bit of sympathy on your part considering how the rest of the country views Miami's integrity during the 80s and 90s. (I'm not about to get into that debate though...)
As for USC, no I never got crazy on them. What made me pissed about that situation is that the story broke via Yahoo, and then nobody at the NCAA did shit about it. They just sat there like nothing was happening until Yahoo kept digging up even more stuff to where everyone in the MSM was talking about it and the NCAA was finally forced to act. It's also what is currently pissing off OSU fans, and other Big Ten fans I know, about Auburn and Cam Newton. The evidence was all there: texts, emails, phone calls, voicemails, former players, and all reported by Yahoo, but the NCAA investigated for about a week and declared nothing wrong. They acted like Officer Barbrady: "Nothing to see here". I imagine USC fans aren't big fans of how Auburn and Cam Newton were handled either.
Onto the OSU thing:
-The scandal outside of Tressel's email and Pryor's everything: The kids knew they were wrong in doing that (Those who actually did), however I don't understand the rule at all. It's their stuff. Why can't they sell it? The minute they graduate or leave school they can, so why not while in school? To take this further, did you know that these kids get swag bags at bowl games (ditto for other sports)? These bags contain game consoles, games, CDs, DVDs, etc. If they turn around and sell those items, is that also illegal? What gives the NCAA the power to tell players they can't sell their own possessions? Trust me, I get the distinction they're trying to maintain between an amateur athlete and a pro, but it's an odd line that sometimes seems arbitrary.
-Tressel: Probably had an idea that some kids were gaming the system, and made a terrible mistake by not reporting that email immediately. Had he done so, this thread wouldn't even exist, and he'd be retiring in 2-3 years.
-Gene Smith: Should have fired Tressel immediately, and whether intentional or not, isn't looking so great right now. I think he should be fired for chairing the Selection Committee and allowing OSU to be stuck in a brutal bracket. If I had to guess, I'd say he won't survive this scandal.
-G. Gordon Gee: Refused to fire Cooper. For that reason alone, I've never liked him. No idea whether he stays or goes. I imagine he stays. And yes, even OSU fans thought his "I hope he doesn't fire us." comment was ridiculous.
-Pryor: The overwhelming feeling is that everyone is thrilled he's gone. He wasn't exactly loved by players, and fans were always 50/50 on him. With the scandal he is hated in the locker room, and fans wanted him gone. He was acting very much alone in breaking NCAA rules (not the tattoo stuff) with the memorabilia he was selling (that he didn't own and would sign for cash) and the cars he was driving. I doubt he'll be a good pro athlete.
The most important thing to remember about Pryor is that every school in the country wanted him, and they'd be in the same boat right now if they had taken him.
-OSU: Labeling the program as dirty is sour grapes from other programs, just like people have done to USC, Miami, Florida State, Florida, Michigan, etc. To back that point up, I think Michigan, a school I loathe, is one of the classiest, cleanest programs in the country. However, they've had a MAJOR scandal in basketball and minor scandals in football. This shit happens everywhere. You can't stop thousands of kids, most of whom are from poor families, from accepting benefits and/or cash from people not associated with that school's sports programs. It's going to happen. I think OSU should be punished for failing to notice what was happening, but not as heavily as USC because a coach wasn't directly involved in obtaining the benefits. That's the difference between the scandals. Plus, the NCAA moves so slow that at this point they're doing nothing but punishing players who weren't involved, fans, and the bowl games. (That's not a cocky remark. The bowls love OSU because they're the #1 traveling team and they are a huge ratings draw.)
So there's my final word for now.
P.S. I fully expect you guys to beat the hell out of us this year. Too many defensive players gone, and the two QBs likely to play aren't very good. Although, if Braxton Miller gets to start as a true freshman, you might get to see something special. 5 star recruit with a laser who can run, has good pocket awareness, and has a block O tattoo on his arm. I doubt he'll be doing anything to stain the program.
I think we agree more than you realize, but I'm not willing to publicly execute someone until all the facts come out. You seem to be more willing to do so, although as I said, I doubt you'd be as willing if this was happening to Miami.
Also, I get the hate from a Miami fan because of '02, but you'd think there would be a bit of sympathy on your part considering how the rest of the country views Miami's integrity during the 80s and 90s. (I'm not about to get into that debate though...)
As for USC, no I never got crazy on them. What made me pissed about that situation is that the story broke via Yahoo, and then nobody at the NCAA did shit about it. They just sat there like nothing was happening until Yahoo kept digging up even more stuff to where everyone in the MSM was talking about it and the NCAA was finally forced to act. It's also what is currently pissing off OSU fans, and other Big Ten fans I know, about Auburn and Cam Newton. The evidence was all there: texts, emails, phone calls, voicemails, former players, and all reported by Yahoo, but the NCAA investigated for about a week and declared nothing wrong. They acted like Officer Barbrady: "Nothing to see here". I imagine USC fans aren't big fans of how Auburn and Cam Newton were handled either.
Onto the OSU thing:
-The scandal outside of Tressel's email and Pryor's everything: The kids knew they were wrong in doing that (Those who actually did), however I don't understand the rule at all. It's their stuff. Why can't they sell it? The minute they graduate or leave school they can, so why not while in school? To take this further, did you know that these kids get swag bags at bowl games (ditto for other sports)? These bags contain game consoles, games, CDs, DVDs, etc. If they turn around and sell those items, is that also illegal? What gives the NCAA the power to tell players they can't sell their own possessions? Trust me, I get the distinction they're trying to maintain between an amateur athlete and a pro, but it's an odd line that sometimes seems arbitrary.
-Tressel: Probably had an idea that some kids were gaming the system, and made a terrible mistake by not reporting that email immediately. Had he done so, this thread wouldn't even exist, and he'd be retiring in 2-3 years.
-Gene Smith: Should have fired Tressel immediately, and whether intentional or not, isn't looking so great right now. I think he should be fired for chairing the Selection Committee and allowing OSU to be stuck in a brutal bracket. If I had to guess, I'd say he won't survive this scandal.
-G. Gordon Gee: Refused to fire Cooper. For that reason alone, I've never liked him. No idea whether he stays or goes. I imagine he stays. And yes, even OSU fans thought his "I hope he doesn't fire us." comment was ridiculous.
-Pryor: The overwhelming feeling is that everyone is thrilled he's gone. He wasn't exactly loved by players, and fans were always 50/50 on him. With the scandal he is hated in the locker room, and fans wanted him gone. He was acting very much alone in breaking NCAA rules (not the tattoo stuff) with the memorabilia he was selling (that he didn't own and would sign for cash) and the cars he was driving. I doubt he'll be a good pro athlete.
The most important thing to remember about Pryor is that every school in the country wanted him, and they'd be in the same boat right now if they had taken him.
-OSU: Labeling the program as dirty is sour grapes from other programs, just like people have done to USC, Miami, Florida State, Florida, Michigan, etc. To back that point up, I think Michigan, a school I loathe, is one of the classiest, cleanest programs in the country. However, they've had a MAJOR scandal in basketball and minor scandals in football. This shit happens everywhere. You can't stop thousands of kids, most of whom are from poor families, from accepting benefits and/or cash from people not associated with that school's sports programs. It's going to happen. I think OSU should be punished for failing to notice what was happening, but not as heavily as USC because a coach wasn't directly involved in obtaining the benefits. That's the difference between the scandals. Plus, the NCAA moves so slow that at this point they're doing nothing but punishing players who weren't involved, fans, and the bowl games. (That's not a cocky remark. The bowls love OSU because they're the #1 traveling team and they are a huge ratings draw.)
So there's my final word for now.
P.S. I fully expect you guys to beat the hell out of us this year. Too many defensive players gone, and the two QBs likely to play aren't very good. Although, if Braxton Miller gets to start as a true freshman, you might get to see something special. 5 star recruit with a laser who can run, has good pocket awareness, and has a block O tattoo on his arm. I doubt he'll be doing anything to stain the program.
"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
Back to the NFL, I have a hunch we'll see the lockout end before July 1st.
"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
ESPN is reporting that the players and owners met for the third week in a row and nobody is getting pissy and walking away. Apparently, everyone is committed to getting something done finally.
Also, I've seen two rumors now about coaches and/or players being told to get ready to report. Rumors, but where there's smoke...
Also, I've seen two rumors now about coaches and/or players being told to get ready to report. Rumors, but where there's smoke...
"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
It was nice hoping that our football program would rise above mediocrity....
Article
Investigation wraps up next month I think.
Maybe some football players actually come from wealthy families, but somehow I have my doubts.
North Carolina has identified eight football players who accumulated 317 parking tickets that were uncovered in documents requested by media outlets covering the ongoing NCAA probe.
The school released a chart Friday that links those players’ names to their license plate numbers on vehicles that included a Land Rover, BMW and an Acura.
A week ago, the school released records that showed some players combined for 395 citations totaling more than $13,000 between March 2007 and August 2010.
Article
Investigation wraps up next month I think.
Maybe some football players actually come from wealthy families, but somehow I have my doubts.
It's not me, it's someone else.
OSU vacates bowl game they never should have played in anyway
Nice job stealing that Big Ten title too.
Nice job stealing that Big Ten title too.
It's not me, it's someone else.
FYI: I don't know a single Buckeye fan who believes the NCAA will think that's enough punishment. Since this year is already a write off, they should have thrown on at least a bowl game ban as well.
I've never bought into the concept of vacating wins being a punishment. There are no Michigan fans up here running around saying "We beat the Buckeyes!". Fans don't care about vacated wins. And how do record books display them? With an asterisk? I can see it now: "Ohio State beat Arkansas on the field in the Sugar Bowl, but it doesn't count...even though all the stats do...because 5 of their players sold their own property and got tattoos."
USC had to vacate their title, and the other team in that bowl, Oklahoma, immediately released a statement saying that they didn't want it. Vacated wins don't do shit. You can't alter the past.
People up here are still expecting the NCAA to hammer OSU, although the implied scandal is way bigger than the actual infractions.
-The whole thing about cars was a big non-issue. All sales were found to be legit and did not break NCAA rules.
-Everyone involved in the tattoo thing has been punished.
-Tressel is gone.
-Pryor had the biggest potential scandal in signing helmets and such for money, but he is now gone and is refusing to cooperate with the NCAA. Rumor has it that he paid north of $20,000 during his time at OSU. Not by a booster to play there or anything (like the Reggie Bush situation), but by some memorabilia guy who was paying him just to sign things.
So I guess the focus is going to be on the compliance department and whether or not they were doing their jobs properly. Should be interesting.
In related news, did you see that "recruiter" rolled on Chip Kelly and said he authorized a $25,000 payment to help bring in athletes? Apparently this guy also had dealings with Cal and LSU...
So to review:
-The Pac 10 might as well not even show up this year since USC is being punished and the conference's other team , Oregon, is about to get nailed.
-Boise State is going to be sanctioned.
-In the Big Ten, Illinois has already been hit, Michigan just got hit, and now OSU faces sanctions. Plus, there have been rumblings about some stuff going on in Wisconsin...
-Apparently, the QB at Oklahoma has been getting paid, and they're in trouble now. And without Nebraska, the Big 12 looks really weak.
-Auburn is still under investigation, and the NCAA's one hour investigation turned up nothing despite recent former players coming out saying they were paid and actually naming coaches who helped facilitate those payments.
-North Carolina is getting nailed.
-Florida, Georgia, Alabama, and Tennessee are either currently under investigation or have some sort of scandals brewing.
And this is all just football...
Yeah, the NCAA is doing a great job, and really understands their student athletes.
I've never bought into the concept of vacating wins being a punishment. There are no Michigan fans up here running around saying "We beat the Buckeyes!". Fans don't care about vacated wins. And how do record books display them? With an asterisk? I can see it now: "Ohio State beat Arkansas on the field in the Sugar Bowl, but it doesn't count...even though all the stats do...because 5 of their players sold their own property and got tattoos."
USC had to vacate their title, and the other team in that bowl, Oklahoma, immediately released a statement saying that they didn't want it. Vacated wins don't do shit. You can't alter the past.
People up here are still expecting the NCAA to hammer OSU, although the implied scandal is way bigger than the actual infractions.
-The whole thing about cars was a big non-issue. All sales were found to be legit and did not break NCAA rules.
-Everyone involved in the tattoo thing has been punished.
-Tressel is gone.
-Pryor had the biggest potential scandal in signing helmets and such for money, but he is now gone and is refusing to cooperate with the NCAA. Rumor has it that he paid north of $20,000 during his time at OSU. Not by a booster to play there or anything (like the Reggie Bush situation), but by some memorabilia guy who was paying him just to sign things.
So I guess the focus is going to be on the compliance department and whether or not they were doing their jobs properly. Should be interesting.
In related news, did you see that "recruiter" rolled on Chip Kelly and said he authorized a $25,000 payment to help bring in athletes? Apparently this guy also had dealings with Cal and LSU...
So to review:
-The Pac 10 might as well not even show up this year since USC is being punished and the conference's other team , Oregon, is about to get nailed.
-Boise State is going to be sanctioned.
-In the Big Ten, Illinois has already been hit, Michigan just got hit, and now OSU faces sanctions. Plus, there have been rumblings about some stuff going on in Wisconsin...
-Apparently, the QB at Oklahoma has been getting paid, and they're in trouble now. And without Nebraska, the Big 12 looks really weak.
-Auburn is still under investigation, and the NCAA's one hour investigation turned up nothing despite recent former players coming out saying they were paid and actually naming coaches who helped facilitate those payments.
-North Carolina is getting nailed.
-Florida, Georgia, Alabama, and Tennessee are either currently under investigation or have some sort of scandals brewing.
And this is all just football...
Yeah, the NCAA is doing a great job, and really understands their student athletes.
"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
Vacating is the stupidest punishment ever.
It's like saying to a CEO "Ok, you were fraudulently changing our financial records, so we're going to remove your name from the history page of our website, and burn all copies of annual reports from that time period, but go ahead and keep your bonuses and stock options you exercised."
It doesn't give Michigan State the Big Ten title, does it? Or get their players into the BCS game?
Or get Oklahoma their championship?
I don't know what the answer is, but in my mind college major sports may as well be semi-pro leagues.
It's like saying to a CEO "Ok, you were fraudulently changing our financial records, so we're going to remove your name from the history page of our website, and burn all copies of annual reports from that time period, but go ahead and keep your bonuses and stock options you exercised."
It doesn't give Michigan State the Big Ten title, does it? Or get their players into the BCS game?
Or get Oklahoma their championship?
I don't know what the answer is, but in my mind college major sports may as well be semi-pro leagues.
It's not me, it's someone else.
So by now everyone knows the NFL is returning, hooray!
Now can someone explain to me how the NFLPA isn't a union?
Back to the OSU saga, OSU bans Pryor.
August 12th is rapidly approaching, which will be OSU's day in court in front of the NCAA.
Although, this has helped ease the worry. Hopefully, this has made my prediction correct that OSU won't be getting USC's punishment.
Now can someone explain to me how the NFLPA isn't a union?
Back to the OSU saga, OSU bans Pryor.
August 12th is rapidly approaching, which will be OSU's day in court in front of the NCAA.
Although, this has helped ease the worry. Hopefully, this has made my prediction correct that OSU won't be getting USC's punishment.
"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
Now Duke is under investigation.
I think it'd be easier to list the schools not under investigation than to list those who are...
Heading to the NFL, and please make time for these articles, they're pure entertainment, you might not know who Chris Kluwe is, but you should because he is teh awesome. He's the punter for the Vikings, and here are his latest exploits:
It starts here.
Then he did this.
Which prompted a response from Nate Jackson. (What a dick. He's everything wrong with athletes today.)
Chris Kluwe fires back at Nate.
Now with McNabb coming into town, he'll be wanting #5, which Chris happens to wear. Well, Chris has a deal for him.
I think it'd be easier to list the schools not under investigation than to list those who are...
Heading to the NFL, and please make time for these articles, they're pure entertainment, you might not know who Chris Kluwe is, but you should because he is teh awesome. He's the punter for the Vikings, and here are his latest exploits:
It starts here.
Then he did this.
Which prompted a response from Nate Jackson. (What a dick. He's everything wrong with athletes today.)
Chris Kluwe fires back at Nate.
Now with McNabb coming into town, he'll be wanting #5, which Chris happens to wear. Well, Chris has a deal for him.
"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
Also, I will take number 4, since pi is not an option. #iwantanimaginarynumber, #Brettwontmindright
Yep, Favre’s old number. Sounds good to me. No better way to put an end to that chapter in Vikings lore than to have a punter assume the iconic #4 jersey.
Sweet.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Pittsburgh Steelers in Dark Knight Rising.
What NFL team has had the most players do cameos or get roles in movies?
Pittsburgh has to be up there thanks to Burt Reynolds, and now Christopher Nolan. Oakland is a contender too. Surprisingly Buffalo has to be considered. Miami thanks to Marino. The Packers got their Favre cameo. Who else?
What NFL team has had the most players do cameos or get roles in movies?
Pittsburgh has to be up there thanks to Burt Reynolds, and now Christopher Nolan. Oakland is a contender too. Surprisingly Buffalo has to be considered. Miami thanks to Marino. The Packers got their Favre cameo. Who else?
"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
Buckeyes had their day in court. They're now awaiting punishment. Lots of people rooting for the hammer. "Haters gonna hate!"
There's also a lot of people saying the short meeting with the NCAA bodes well for OSU.
I've already seen conspiracy theory stuff going both ways. If OSU gets nailed, it's because of ESPN and their deals with the SEC and Texas. If OSU gets a slap on the wrist it's because of the networks and bowl games who don't want the country's #1 draw to go away.
Meanwhile, Miami is under investigation.
The SEC continues to escape scrutiny despite players admitting payment, and photos of a player signing jerseys, which were then sold.
Whatever.
There's also a lot of people saying the short meeting with the NCAA bodes well for OSU.
I've already seen conspiracy theory stuff going both ways. If OSU gets nailed, it's because of ESPN and their deals with the SEC and Texas. If OSU gets a slap on the wrist it's because of the networks and bowl games who don't want the country's #1 draw to go away.
Meanwhile, Miami is under investigation.
The SEC continues to escape scrutiny despite players admitting payment, and photos of a player signing jerseys, which were then sold.
Whatever.
"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
The fact that Tressel knew about what was going on means: more than a slap on the wrist to me. That being said, it shouldn't be a huge penalty either, given that, ultimately, it looks like little more than the stuff for tattoos was going on.
IMHO, Tressel's resignation should help.
IMHO, Tressel's resignation should help.
It's not me, it's someone else.
The fact that Tressel knew about what was going on means: more than a slap on the wrist to me.
I think the big difference that people don't get between OSU and USC is that Tressel didn't facilitate the cheating. He fucked up in not reporting. Just a tremendously stupid move that has cost him his reputation and career. At USC, a coach was actually helping the deals go down.
I still don't understand how you don't report it. You suspend your players for the first three games, which the NCAA probably would have accepted at that point because YOU caught it, and YOU reported it.
That being said, it shouldn't be a huge penalty either, given that, ultimately, it looks like little more than the stuff for tattoos was going on.
Lots of relief in Ohio when the cars thing turned out to be bunk. If that stuff were true, I could've seen USC penalties.
IMHO, Tressel's resignation should help.
Hopefully that and the pay back of the Sugar Bowl money...
OSU got mocked by the rest of the Big Ten when the scandal hit and the other teams were acting very morally superior. When the pay back of the Sugar Bowl money news hit the UofM's official football twitter feed made a joke about the $333K being Terrell Pryor's annual salary. I laughed, but then wondered if the other "morally superior" schools would be giving back their ill gotten money or if Michigan gave back any of their Fab Five money... (they didn't)
It'll be interesting to see what happens. Lots of folks want OSU hammered for personal reasons, while others just think the NCAA needs to prove their power. That being said, is this really the case that warrants that display of power? According to the NCAA, the school actually did its job, and the fault lies with Tressel and 6 players. Tressel is gone, as is one of those players. The rest have already been punished.
No matter how it comes out, OSU had better crack down on this shit.
"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell