Better than Uncle Tom.
The MSM (Main Stream Media)
The MSM
I've been trying to find more info on this "controversial" pastor. Seems like the controversy is that he was against gay marriage. Imagine a Christian pastor being against gay marriage. Next thing they'll be telling me he's against theft and taking the Lord's name in vain.
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren
The MSM
He accused Obama of supporting pedophilia, and there's some other stuff.
Imagine a Christian pastor being against gay marriage.
Imagine if they could follow the Bible.
It's not me, it's someone else.
The MSM
I think they're out there, they just don't make good press.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
The MSM
I think most embrace the sinner. It's being demanded that they embrace the sin. That's the problem.TheCatt wrote: Think the Jesusy part, since they claim to be Christian.
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren
The MSM
I feel like John 13:34 is pretty clear. Or, Mark 12:31. It's not about the sinner, or the sin. Or John 15:12. Or John 4:20-21
It's not me, it's someone else.
The MSM
I'm not sure who that is off the top of my head, but I believe CNN would react positively to Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson meeting with the president, and that alone is proof of where they stand. Those two race baiting fuckwads are about as evil and self-serving as it gets.
Although, to be fair (TO BE FAIRRRRRR!), not sure I can name a single politician or political leader I believe in or trust. Maybe that Dem from Michigan who defended Trump's attacks on China, but not his methods. He said, and I'm paraphrasing, "Why is the rest of the world pretending China doesn't do really shitty stuff?"
"Happy slaves are the worst enemies of freedom." - Marie Von Ebner
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
"It was always the women, and above all the young ones, who were the most bigoted adherents of the Party, the swallowers of slogans, the amateur spies..." - Orwell
The MSM
These actually support what I said about loving the sinner. It's kind of like when people come to AA. You don't trash them for being alcoholics, but you don't celebrate when they go back out and keep drinking.TheCatt wrote: I feel like John 13:34 is pretty clear. Or, Mark 12:31. It's not about the sinner, or the sin. Or John 15:12. Or John 4:20-21
Also, I'm not sure how John 4:20-21 applies. But if you want to quote scriptures, we can go that route. I will grant that many Christians seem a lot more concerned with the sin of homosexuality much more than the other sins often mentioned right along side the homosexuality in the same passages.
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren
The MSM
That's why he said, "Keep on keeping on" to all the sinners.
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren
The MSM
Here's the John: Sorry for getting that a little wrong.
Do you think that the point of the new testament is Jesus'/God's love for humanity? And that humanity should love the rest of humanity?
Cuz it feels really clear from these verses
I mean, if we're to boil the NT down to one central truth, what would it be?20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot[a] love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.
Colossians 3:12-14 English Standard Version (ESV)
12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. 14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.
John 13:34 ESV / 179 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Mark 12:31 ESV / 169 helpful votes
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
John 13:34-35 ESV / 162 helpful votes
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
It's not me, it's someone else.
The MSM
I think you're right that the love of your brother is a big central theme of the New Testament. I think I'd disagree that it is THE central message. Jesus was pretty clear about all the commandments that came before him are still in effect. He didn't say he was replacing the original ten commandments. He said he was adding two more. Really not sure how to approach the unconditional love part. Jesus (and the Old Testament before Him) was pretty clear that entry into heaven actually IS conditional. I suppose you can love someone and still let them go. Parents often do so with drug addict children. That's an interesting one to ponder.
I think it's not irrelevant that before He said to love your neighbor as yourself that you must love God with all your heart. So Jesus put that first, at least in revealing these two new commandments to His followers. I think He really focused on loving your neighbor because that really helps in keeping the more earthly commandments (killing, stealing, adultry, etc). Also, the forgiveness of others part is important. It's a core tenant of AA for a reason. Resentments make you do stupid stuff. Ugly, stupid stuff.
But we probably would need another thread for God and the bible. I do like pondering these things, though.
I think it's not irrelevant that before He said to love your neighbor as yourself that you must love God with all your heart. So Jesus put that first, at least in revealing these two new commandments to His followers. I think He really focused on loving your neighbor because that really helps in keeping the more earthly commandments (killing, stealing, adultry, etc). Also, the forgiveness of others part is important. It's a core tenant of AA for a reason. Resentments make you do stupid stuff. Ugly, stupid stuff.
But we probably would need another thread for God and the bible. I do like pondering these things, though.
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren
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The bar seemed to change a lot from follow a bunch of rules to ask forgiveness and try.
I don't disagree, for the most part. But I feel people are ignoring the love part, supposedly commandment level, for a bunch of the nitty gritty that's archaic and most likely irrelevant. The range of Christianity and its expression has always been a bit odd to me. Some expressions are pretty much Communism, drawing from various lessons of Jesus, and others are basically totalitarianism, drawing from various old testament sources, with a wide range in between.Vince wrote: I think He really focused on loving your neighbor because that really helps in keeping the more earthly commandments (killing, stealing, adultry, etc). Also, the forgiveness of others part is important. It's a core tenant of AA for a reason. Resentments make you do stupid stuff. Ugly, stupid stuff.
When I was "born again" 20 years ago, I felt that it ultimately boiled down to "love others," "do unto others," and "judge not." The former, as you say, supporting the other commandments, etc. Opposition to gay marriage never seemed compatible with these. If you want to marry, why not people God made gay also? Why should their love be banned or curtailed? It never seemed compatible.
Ultimately, I left organized religion due to the people who make it up. People will always be flawed, misuse religious power, etc. Secular institutions certainly suffer from the same issues, but without the conviction of those who things the literal word of God supports their actions. Although, as Gordon frequently points out, that distinction is being lost as well.
Several years ago, I basically adopted Bill + Tedism, although Lord knows I'm not great at it. "Be excellent unto each other" would help this world a lot.
It's not me, it's someone else.
The MSM
I can't really debate religion too much. My knowledge has decreased a lot since I left the church 17 years ago. Most of my close religious friends are on the more liberal side of the political spectrum (one's an Episcopalian priest, one a protestant reverend, among others). The one issue that they don't basically agree on (amongst themselves) is abortion. Several are VERY anti-abortion. Others see it as a personal choice.
It's not me, it's someone else.
The MSM
Agreed. I think that was a lot of the point of Jesus' coming.TheCatt wrote: The bar seemed to change a lot from follow a bunch of rules to ask forgiveness and try.
I agree with a lot of this. I would alter the "judge not" to "leave the sentencing to God". When the adulteress was about to be stoned, I didn't take from that story that Christ was saying she hadn't sinned. I took away, "Let's leave the punishment part to God now". And I think that was a big departure from the Old Testament.TheCatt wrote:When I was "born again" 20 years ago, I felt that it ultimately boiled down to "love others," "do unto others," and "judge not." The former, as you say, supporting the other commandments, etc. Opposition to gay marriage never seemed compatible with these. If you want to marry, why not people God made gay also? Why should their love be banned or curtailed? It never seemed compatible.
I'll be honest that I struggled with God giving people homosexual impulses while making it a sin. Didn't seem fair at first. But I've recently come to understand that those feelings come from Christians in general becoming slack on other sinful behavior. If Christians go down that road, a whole lot of abhorrent behavior can be excused. If God really didn't want me to cheat on my first wife, why did he make me so lustful? I don't think the problem is that Christians are too strict when it come to homosexuality. I think they're far too lax when it comes to sinful heterosexuality. The Bible is pretty clear that the homosexual and the fornicator are equally barred from heaven (along with a number of other choice sinners). There is a level of homophobia at play that Christians treat the two differently.
As far as punishing the sinner, I'll leave that to God. But when it comes to abetting sin, I hearken back to what Jesus said about children and sin. "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren
The MSM
As Christianity's rules go, I have to agree with you here. Literally a commandment.
I feel like you're deviating from the love part, here.Vince wrote: As far as punishing the sinner, I'll leave that to God. But when it comes to abetting sin, I hearken back to what Jesus said about children and sin. "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."
Which seems a bit absurd, given that one is a commandment. There's LAWS and laws. Varying levels of judgment, I would assume, based on the sin committed.
I'd have to leave the "is homosexuality a sin" argument to others with more knowledge than myself. (I just googled that one at random, I'm not familiar with that organization) It certainly seems more disputable than Murder. Additionally, it doesn't appear Jesus addressed it explicitly.
He should really come back and clear things up. (I say that mostly seriously. I'm not an atheist, but also skeptical of Bible as literal word of God, etc). A sign of clarification would be nice on many issues.
It's not me, it's someone else.
The MSM
I'm not suggesting that anyone should punish the person leading the child to sin. Jesus is pretty clear here that God will certainly take care of that. I just don't want to be on the receiving end of that wrath for abetting something that I shouldn't be abetting.TheCatt wrote:I feel like you're deviating from the love part, here.Vince wrote: As far as punishing the sinner, I'll leave that to God. But when it comes to abetting sin, I hearken back to what Jesus said about children and sin. "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."
Well, that was from Paul and he was hand picked by Jesus to spread the gospel after he'd been resurrected. He said that Paul spoke for Him. I haven't read a lot of these, but I read through some of what was in that link. Some of it's reasonable. Some of it (like the part from Romans) certainly read less like an earnest interpretation of the scriptures and more of an effort to provide a loophole for a conclusion they'd already reached.TheCatt wrote: Which seems a bit absurd, given that one is a commandment. There's LAWS and laws. Varying levels of judgment, I would assume, based on the sin committed.
I'd have to leave the "is homosexuality a sin" argument to others with more knowledge than myself. (I just googled that one at random, I'm not familiar with that organization) It certainly seems more disputable than Murder. Additionally, it doesn't appear Jesus addressed it explicitly.
He should really come back and clear things up. (I say that mostly seriously. I'm not an atheist, but also skeptical of Bible as literal word of God, etc). A sign of clarification would be nice on many issues.
And I agree about coming back to clear things up. Heard of a discussion between a Jew and a Christian that the first question would be, "is this your first trip down?"
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren