Competative tournament thread

For sooper seekrit League of Legends, <s>UO</s> <s>EVE</s> talk <s>and Diplomacy</s>.
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Cakedaddy
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Postby Cakedaddy » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:30 pm

Told Scooty to take lead on this one. Told him we needed to know when, where and who. He's working on it. Tournament info so far is to vague to answer beyond the tournament time frame. And correction.

Nov 15th to Dec 1st.

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Postby TheCatt » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:19 pm

I'll do it! Then I can get bumped for Gordon, and he can feel better.
It's not me, it's someone else.

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Postby GORDON » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:30 pm

I'm the one who can't devote a full day to gaming.
Fuuuuuuck YOU.

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Leisher
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Postby Leisher » Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:53 pm

Our support has been MIA for weeks.


He's been waiting for us to finish Borderlands 2.

Our AD carry has been sick.


Just to clarify, I logged on around 1:30 a.m. on a Saturday night and said I didn't feel up to playing. Gordo had just logged out. Scooty was playing Call of Doodee. Stranger wasn't online.

Your conclusion regarding the AD Carry is insane.

I'm trying to build up a base of people that play so when a tournament shows up, we have a chance of fielding 5 players. When it comes to picking who's in it, I/we will deal with that when the time comes. As it is, everyone is sweating the details and not participating.

I've already said that I'd play with you before a stranger. But when I'm not sure I have a full commitment, I have to cover my bases.


I understand what you're trying to do. That's not the part where I think there's trouble brewing.

Off the top of my head, when the time comes, we open the team up as a first come first served thing. We decide who's in from our group, then open up slots from there. Not going to worry about hurt feelings until we actually have a tournament lined up and >5 people who are going to participate.


Here's where I think you lose folks. Pick us, lose potential teammates. Pick them, lose us, and in at least one case, probably permanently.

As for the tournament, I know I can't commit to a full day of gaming. I can get free from 9 p.m. -1 a.m. most weeknights, and 9 p.m. - ? most weekends. With notice, I could carve out more time, but I'd need more than a day or two notice, and it would depend on if my family has plans.

That's life.

Still, like I said before, I'm in. I guarantee you Stranger is in too. Whether or not that means we'll be available...




Edited By Leisher on 1352338389
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GORDON
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Postby GORDON » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Just consider me out, with no hard feelings. I can't devote a day to it, and honestly I don't really care enough about a tournament in which everyone will cheat, to try.
Fuuuuuuck YOU.

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Postby Cakedaddy » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:54 pm

That's a bridge I have to cross when I get to it. Impossible to plan for it when you don't know when, how, etc it's going to happen.

2 people are in, if, nothing else is in the way. One person out because he doesn't want to play against cheaters and is busy. I mean, how do I plan for every possible contingency? Like any team, ever. Some people have to sit the bench for some games. Unless everyone is going to quit their jobs and live in a dorm with the other team mates and be available all the time, we'll have to jump some hurdles every once in a while. If people don't want to train and play with a larger pool of players because one day they MIGHT not get to play in one of many tournaments. . . well, that's their decision.

If you guys say you are going to be in a tournament, then you'll be in it. If JoeInternetStranger gets butt hurt because he doesn't play that weekend, well, we'll pick a different JoeInternetStranger the next tournament if needed. The pool of players, at our level, is HUGE.

I'm not going to stress hurt butts until one is reported. I'll deal with it at that time. Since Gordon won't be playing, he can kiss it for them.

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Postby Cakedaddy » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:58 pm

Since we play BL2 a few nights a week, he can't play LoL the other nights with us?!

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Postby GORDON » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:59 pm

wow now i really want to play
Fuuuuuuck YOU.

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Postby Cakedaddy » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:06 pm

Oh good lord. I give up. I will only play with you guys. Ever. I hope one day we can all set a day aside to play in a tournament together. If not, oh well. I guess I miss out.

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Postby Cakedaddy » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:07 pm

I don't even understand what I said that would make you say that. Do you feel bad for JoeInternetStranger? I just don't get it. . . .

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Postby GORDON » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:08 pm

Cakedaddy wrote:I don't even understand what I said that would make you say that. Do you feel bad for JoeInternetStranger? I just don't get it. . . .

it was when you said i could kiss everyones ass
Fuuuuuuck YOU.

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Postby Cakedaddy » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:22 pm

Not everyone's. Just the hurt ones.

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Postby TPRJones » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:11 pm

The tears make it taste better.

So I've got this friend that is too good for us, like way too good for us. He's frustrated by playing with us and sometimes some of us get frustrated playing with him (not me, I almost never get frustrated by losing). May I introduce him to y'all sometime? He might make a good addition to your tournament efforts.
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Postby GORDON » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:51 pm

One thing I am learning about this community is that for some people if you ever make a single mistake, it will set them off and they will not stop raging against you. If he is that kind of guy, no thanks.
Fuuuuuuck YOU.

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Postby Leisher » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:08 am

I'm still in on the tournaments, although I think as a group we're way out of practice. We need to hurry up and finish BL2, so we can get back into LoL more often.

As for Stranger, I'll talk to him, but I think he knows our schedule is pretty tight right now:
Sunday - Walking Dead
Monday - Poker
Tuesday - We play?
Wednesday - BL2
Thursday - BL2
Friday - BL2 or LoL
Saturday - Not sure, as Cake is out due to regular visitors.

The only thing I'll say about the tournaments is that I don't want it to be a wedge in our team, and what ends LoL. If Gordo doesn't want to play in them, cool. However, on normal nights, I still expect to be able to play alongside him, and not be stuck perpetually with Scooty's friends. No offense to them as the one tonight seemed like a nice guy, but I don't have a few decades worth of rips I can unleash on them. :)

It's already bad enough with the new "TT" basically ending our 3v3 possibilities.

As for TPR's friend, sure. Although, after watching us tonight, we are rusty as hell, so he might get pissy at us, which we've got no time for, but if he wants to try us out, and vice versa, I'm for it.
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Postby TPRJones » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:26 am

I've never seen him get pissy about it, no worries there. At least not with us. He hasn't openly expressed any frustration, but I can tell.

I'll let him know I know some guys that are (or at least used to be :p ) fun to play with and at a higher level, and see if he's interested.
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Postby Cakedaddy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:28 am

Yes, we are rusty. But we still have to work on our team comp. With Stranger being out, it highlights a glaring gap in our support depth. Gordon stepped up with Nunu, but now we lost our tank. Scooty has experience top, but he doesn't play tanky champs. Or rather, champs tanky. He builds for kills. The WuKong we recruited seems to do well when the rest of the team does well, and poorly along with the team. Has been up for the fight to the end though, which is good. However, more than just being rusty, we lack team work, and team comp. As always. . .

My fear is, if we haven't fixed it by now, not sure if we can.

Our problems as I saw them:

No wards - Duh
Lack of team response - Right now, I don't mind losing a team fight because we are out of practice. But it's annoying to lose a team fight to find that one of us was still laning/jungling/shopping. We are back to "I'll be there just as soon as I finish killing this xxxx". Or, "You were too far away to help". The other teams were ALWAYS there to mop us up after any fight we were in. We miss a lot of kills by not going to every fight, every time.
Lack of push - We had the kills, but not the push.

But, how can we push if we are constantly responding to fights?! You push the lane we just won. If they are pushing a lane, you counter push. Push another one harder making them fall back. If we are responding to fights properly, we should be able to push a turret after the engagement. Split pushing should be a desperation last resort move. Or if we are dominating and have them pinned back. Not our primary form of play.

Teleport: Someone sell me on its value. If we don't all have it and use it as part of our strategy, I see it as something people use to split away from the team for easy farm in some far away lane. I've seen it used to save a turret. But at the same time, it splits the team up. I like when we travel as a team, and teleport breaks that.

Promote: :-) I know Gordon likes this. I think that's a carry over from his practice games. I think the team would be better served with heal, him escaping with flash, etc. Is it helping more than I've noticed?

I've played a TON of ranked games with Nunu and Leona as bottom support. Going to check their builds. One for Gordon, two, I might start playing Leona so we have another support option.

Ranked bans:
Blitz - 98% of the game.
Amumu
Malphite
Shen - if he's not banned, he's top
Jayce - if not banned, he's top
Karthus
Rengar - not sure why. He's not broken any more
Alistar

Played:
Ez - every game, although rarely banned
Jayce - if he's not banned, he's in the game
Shen - if he's not banned, he's in the game
Amumu - but not every game. Jungle
Lee Sin - Jungle
Xin - Jungle
Cait
Sona
Leona
Nunu - Bot support

That's all I can think of right now.

I've been changing my style of play lately, and it's not working very well for me. I use to play conservatively and for late game. In solo ranked, people rage on you if you do that. :-) KILL KILL KILL So I've been modifying my builds. The biggest difference I've noticed is with Ashe. I used to build attack speed then damage. I would take Wriggles to farm the lane easier. Now I save up for a BF sword first, then that crossbow that is part of an IE. The BF sword greatly increased the number of last hits I get. I find I don't need the lantern if I get that. I do way more damage to the enemies as well. Seems you have more dps building damage before speed early game. It's all about getting those last hits. I still have a hard time landing them early game. The enemy adc ALWAYS out farms me. And that's a problem. Going to stop taking shoes at the beginning and picking something else. I tried dorans, but it didn't seem to help. Still miss way too many last hits. But again, early game, attack speed means nothing. Doing no damage really fast doesn't add up. :-)

We've been able to do decently as a late game team in the past. But I'm finding that when we go ranked, it increases the level of competition. The enemy team takes advantage of us giving them the early game by snowballing and keeping the train rolling. Things I'm learning to counter that are changing my adc build for more last hits and ganking early, and often as the jungler. Buying pink eye is a must. "It slows my build down!" Too bad. If they have wards, your gank fails anyway. Kill the wards, fail at the gank, but don't die. Repeat. They get tired of planting wards for you to kill and by then your build has caught up and ganks work better.

Pink eye: Costs you 400 gold and slows your build down by 400 gold. You kill one ward. Cost them 75 to plant it, you gained 25. Kill another. Then another. It doesn't take long for your investment of 400 to start costing THEIR build more then 400. You recoup some or all of the cost. They lose money. Your 400 investment hurts their builds 75 gold at a time. Do your team a favor. Have pink eye! Of course the advantage piles up even faster if they are planting vision wards.

Ok, that's all for now. I have more. But, I'll see if people even care about this stuff before continuing. :-)

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Postby Stranger » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:36 am

Cakedaddy wrote:Since we play BL2 a few nights a week, he can't play LoL the other nights with us?!

I don't know when or what games you guys are playing on any given night. The last few times i was on you all were playing B2. Sure i've been busy for the last month or so, But i would think you can all understand that. I stated from the beggining that i was really into playing some B2 so yeah, i've been playing that, so what. Then i got married, i'm sure you all know how much time and effort that takes. Me and Leisher already have plans on mondays. I jam with the band usually once a week and weekends are hit and miss cause i do have other shit in my life i like to do.

But i have played some LOL lately. i got on monday after poker and only cake was on, he was in a game already so i just solo qued just to play. I would like to be apart of the team but i won't be butt hurt if ya don't want me. If i'm not on enough for what you guys want then by all means move on without me. Obviously knowing ahead what time these games are gonna start makes it alot easier to plan out , but i have a feeling that getting two teams together on a time that all works for us is gonna be hard. So i am all about having as many people on our team as possible, im sure that tournaments are going on all the time.

So as far as practicing goes, im not sure. I play when i can, i love to game. I don't avoid playing cause i have some agenda to ruin the team. i still wanna play LOL and im still gonna play B2. If my schedule doesn't line up with what is best for the team then fill in that spot. I don't want gaming to become a source of grief for me.

And just so you know im gonna be on my honeymoon from november 25th till december 2nd, so if that interferes with that tourny then count me out or just use me for the first game or whatever. and i plan on being on tonight so if your playing B2 then fine im sure i will be too, but if you wanna play LOL i'll be down for that.
WORLD CHAMPIONS!!

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Postby Leisher » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:08 pm

I've told Stranger this, and I believe I've said it to the rest, but just in case...he's getting fucked lately in our gaming. It's nobody's fault, so there's no blame to pass around, it's just that he got stuck being the odd man out right now due to BL2. Once we're through BL2, the issue will resolve itself, but until then he doesn't know getting on what our nights hold, and to imply he should be standing by waiting to play with us just in case we play LoL is ridiculous.

Point being, let's keep working our way through BL2, so that we can get on a more normal schedule again, and focus on things like LoL tournaments.

Onto the LoL play last night...

My fear is, if we haven't fixed it by now, not sure if we can.


I'm more optimistic than that. I think we just need to be more honest with ourselves. And I think that starts with our roles.

The next stuff is all laning phase:

AP Mid - Your job is to hold your lane, avoid ganks, help your jungler when he arrives, get last hits, and level up.

AD Carry - Your job is to get last hits, and respond when your support or jungler puts you in a position to get a kill or assist.

Solo Top - See AP Mid...

Support - Your job is to keep your AD Carry healed, drop wards, harass the enemy to keep them from disturbing your AD Carry, setup potential kills/assists for your AD Carry, and do not kill minions.

Jungler - Imho, the single most demanding role. Your job is to farm the jungle, counter jungle when possible, provide ganks for all lanes, ward the jungle entrances, buy oracle's to kill wards, help push lanes, and protect turrets when a lane has to heal.

There is no getting around those roles. We need to embrace them and live by them.

As for team comp, we should be:
AD Carry
AP Carry
Support
Bruiser (top)
Bruiser/Tank (jungle)

That's the current meta. Check the lineups from the last tournament.

As for last night -
1. I agree with no wards. In that third game, I was the only one buying wards throughout the game. Unless you are the AD or AP carry, you should be buying wards every time you go back to base.

Also, the jungler needs oracles. Killing enemy wards pays. It helps our team stay alive meaning less money for them, and it helps our team gank meaning more money for us.

2. The lack of push thing was interesting as well. I blame myself for that in the laning phase of the third game. The ganks were going very well, but I'd leave lane after that for fear of cutting folks off from farm. I should have stuck around and helped push. Late game though, I'm not really sure what we were doing. That game was a complete cluster. We never got together to push, we'd just clear lanes and respond to Singed.

3. Lack of team response - We have an issue here. This is something we've never really worked on. Yes, we've said things like "Drop what you're doing", but we've never really discussed what needs to happen. I don't think it's just a lack of team response, but also poor choices in starting fights and/or lane pushing.

I don't think the response is as much a problem as poor initiations, and poor fight choices. Why are we fighting away from our turrets, especially when we're out leveled? Why are we initiating without making sure everyone is there? Why are we initiating without selecting a target (first two games)?

I honestly have no desire to respond to a 3v5 fight that my team initiated with only 3 people there. Guess what's most likely to happen? I'll get there, you'll all be dead or about to die, and then I'll get targeted and killed.

And the biggest question of them all: Why are we chasing?

That big lvl 1 team fight where we all got our asses kicked? That was because we chased. Graves got caught our of position, and we hit him, but he got away to his friends, that should have told us to retreat. Instead we still had folks taking shots, and worse, on various targets instead of focusing. They focused, and then we were the ones running.

We have got to stop chasing.

What's the best case scenario for chasing someone? Answer: You kill them. That's it. A single kill.

What normally happens? You get caught way out of position by multiple enemies, and you get killed. Worse still, anyone who went to help you is now way out of position and can be killed.

If we hurt someone enough that they're running for their life, guess what? We did the job! We can now farm. We can attack their friends. We can lane. We can jungle. Meanwhile, they have to go back to heal, and hopefully, they used a summoner spell or two to get away.

4. The thing that I think is our biggest problem is the feeding.

We've been able to do decently as a late game team in the past. But I'm finding that when we go ranked, it increases the level of competition. The enemy team takes advantage of us giving them the early game by snowballing and keeping the train rolling.


If your AD Carry has 3 items, and he just bought a BF Sword, while their AD Carry has 5 items, including a completed IE, then you have lost.

The feeding thing ties into everything above.

Going into fights one at a time. Not warding. Our Jungler not getting oracles. Chasing. Face checking bushes when we know enemies are around. Not coordinating fights. Etc.

We do all that stuff, and it has to stop if we want to win normal games, let alone compete in tournaments.

Spells -
Teleport is a must for laning, particularly for top and mid. Who is covering your lane while it takes you an hour to get back?

Where I think we underuitilize teleport is ganks and responses to team fights. We don't ward, so anyone with teleport has to hope a minion is nearby... Throw a ward into weeds and stuff, and voila, you have a teammate right next to an enemy who will have NO IDEA that he's there.

I don't see the value of promote either. I understand the logic behind why Gordo gets it, but I don't think it works out well. For a support, I think heal is far more valuable. For top, it'd be teleport.

Now I save up for a BF sword first


Be careful with that. You're doing NO damage until you get it. That's why I start with boots and the pots, then get the Dorans, and another Dorans until I get the BF Sword money.
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Postby Cakedaddy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:28 pm

Agreed that I'm doing no damage until I get it. But I think dorans are a waste because they don't build into anything and they don't add enough damage to guarantee the last hit. I also think Ashe is a poor early farmer because she does far less damage out of the gate as other carries. Watching MF, Cait, Trist, etc hit minions, they do way more damage. Ashe's slow/stun are cool. But, probably not as important if laning with nunu. And now I'm into team comp. . .

I don't think it's mandatory that jungle be the bruiser, etc. However, we DO need one. Jungle doesn't have to be a tank if top is, or if support (blitz, Naut, etc) is. Scooty was calling for Nunu to be the tank mid game, when I would think that top would have been. I don't know how tanky Nunu can get. Still have to check the builds of the dozens of ranked Nunus I've played with. But back to jungling, I've seen that going both ways. Lee Sin is VERY popular in jungle, as is Xin. Rengar is still popular as well and is definitely not a tank. When building our team, we just need to make sure we are covering everything. Someone has to be a tank/initiator/etc.

Last hits. We need to practice giving our adc the champ kills. We have always been about just making sure they are dead. And by all means, them dying is the number one priority. We need to get better at being able to read if the adc can get the job done. If they can, do not take the shot.

Responding to a 3v5 fight depends on what you have to offer them. Veigar can drop a mass stun which could allow them all to escape. Ez can't. Very limited in what he can do. But if it's 3v3, you definitely head up there. Your damage is needed and you should be able to score a triple mopping up what we've softened up. Every fight will be different and will have to be read. But I think heading up there, just in case, should happen more often than not. So many times, I won't go, thinking they will die quick and there's no point. Only to see that the fight lasted WAY longer than expected, etc. And had I been there, we could have won the fight. Even if it's a sure thing the enemy is going to win. 3v5. Teams make errors. They may not have wards and may be cautious so only some chase. Some may pull off because someone else is split pushing. They fuck up their skill shots and our team doesn't, giving us the advantage. Etc. Writing your team off as lost immediately should never happen. Running into a 1v5 when things are going bad should never happen. But being in a position to take advantage of a situation is obviously a must. If we are warding, and counter warding (vision, pink eye), it will be much easier to gauge a situation. And even when all seems lost, again, the other teams will fuck up sometimes and lose a fight they should win. We need to be prepared to capitalize.

Agreed on the initiation choices. Talking and learning each others champs will help with this.

Back to team comp. We need to make sure we have at least one good initiator. A second 'bruiser' who can take damage, but deal some too. CC. Lots and lots of CC. Every champs should have some, I think. Only exception would be the adc. Not all of them have it.
Initiators: Singed. Amumu. Skarner. (all I can think of in our list)
Bruisers: Maokai. Alistar. Naut.
I'm going to research nunu to see what exactly he does here.

We have to be able to build a full team on the fly, making sure we have tanks, initiators, carries, etc. We have to keep expanding our champ selections. Personally, I'm going to be revisiting my champ selections. Not sure Ashe is the best adc for me. My success with Noc in the jungle is hit and miss. Might be trying Nunu out there. Veigar gets countered in mid very easily. Etc. I'm rebuilding my rune pages too. Basically, I'm questioning every decision I've made in this game. :-)

As far as wives, bands, other games, etc. I see multiple things in that list that need to go so there fewer distractions. I don't want to name any names but, someone needs to learn to prioritize!


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